crossroads.... keep my J and finish upgrading it, or buy a long body....

[bmcconnaha]

fourteen months ago i bought a 1990 M20J with 1880 hours total time, no damage history.  nice enough airplane, but stock interior, original paint in ok shape. stepped down from an SR22 turbo.  Ive been upgrading it throughout the last year.  things ive done:

IO390

hartzell top prop

precise flight speed brakes 

led lights all around the exterior

new nav/com and transponder for ads b in and out...

thorough annual, and correction of rigging. 

ton more small things, but those are the major ones....

plane is currently in san antonio getting a new interior from aero comfort....

heres where it gets muddy.  after the interior gets done, i want to finish the panel (g3x and GFC500, plus some other small stuff, cies senders, new radio for com 2 etc) multiple quotes for avionics (we are a an avionics dealer, but not garmin) put that at about 58k to finish the panel.  I plan to paint the plane down the road if i keep it.  another 20k.  i dont see me being into this for less than 260k all in.  thats a ton for a J, but its very unique with the 390, and performs well.  it meets my mission for travel for me solo, or with one passenger, and does it well (flew from idaho to taxas at 13500, one fuel stop, 162kts true at 13500, 9.7GPH).  no one has ever sat in the back seat.

thats the good.  the bad: a big bore 4cyl will never be as smooth as an io550 OR tsio540.  no FIKI.  no built in o2 (i prefer to fly at 11500-15500)

should i finish this airplane and fly the heck out of this new IO390? its a consistent 162-167kts true, or cut my losses and buy an ovation or bravo?  

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by bmcconnaha

[ZuluZulu]

Keep it!  Once it's done you can keep an eye on the long-body market, waiting to find one good enough to switch out what you have.

[bmcconnaha]

6 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

Keep it!  Once it's done you can keep an eye on the long-body market, waiting to find one good enough to switch out what you have.

that is for sure an option!

[KSMooniac]

I'd keep it and fly the heck out of it. A portable o2 system is no big deal, especially if nobody rides in back. Set up your own transfill rig to fill it frequently and economically if needed since the bottle is smaller. Or get your AME to give you an unlimited Rx for o2 at your local home health outfit like I did... Cheap refills turned overnight.

You'll never get the money out of your improvements except as enjoyment as you use it. I'm not sure if we're in an asset bubble or runaway inflation, so I can't tell if a long body will be cheaper in the future versus now. You'd be trading at peak market now, and unless you found a very particular buyer that recognizes the value in what you've done, you'll take a bath on the move. And then you'll like turn around and sink a lot into the next plane! Maybe that's your hobby?

My J has been a perfect plane for me and I'm continuously improving her. I can get by without ice protection for my area and pleasure trips (I don't fly for work much). I think about moving up, but the J is such a perfect mix of capability, performance, and economy.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk

[carusoam]

Simply determine your priorities…

1) You have budgets to keep within… family, kids, pets…

2) Or you don’t…

3) When constrained by budgets… keep the plane you have and continue to upgrade… when able.

4) No constraints.. go Long body.  The upgrades cost nearly the same… newer, faster, bigger, more Mooney!

 

5) Its a lot easier to make this decision when your existing plane is fully run-out… not just the engine…

6) It is extra challenging to sell one plane before buying the next…

7) It’s financially constraining to be stuck owning two planes for any period of time… if things don’t work as planned…

8) Looking forwards… if the cost of living is really going higher continuously… selling and buying and having time in between will become more of a challenge…

9) If you have gobs of excess cash…. Go Acclaim…. 

 

PP thoughts about aviation economics only, not a plane sales guy…

Best regards,

-a-

[bmcconnaha]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

No doubt you have been following that Mooney Corp appears to be for sale again.  This time it is being peddled on the "bizquest" website.  That is like the means/site of last resort - and the owners/management posted their "Confidential" Mooney Corp Status and Outlook.  It seems like the amateurish outcome of a failed process to raise operating and development funds to me.  It appears like they have just about given up.

My point is that, due to past bankruptcies and actions by past owners/management, just about everything about the M20J/201 is out in the public.  You can download the parts, service and operating manuals - electrical schematics, etc. from multiple sites.  Many aftermarket parts are easy to come by and it is easy to cross reference many of the Mooney parts to the original supplier with equivalent or exact replacement.  The interior suppliers seem to all have the exact templates for the J.  There are a lot of salvage parts for the M20J.  And if Mooney somehow continues as a part supplier or liquidates and sells the parts business, J parts will likely be more available due to the popularity of the model.

If you buy a Long Body on the other hand depending on the year or model, Bravo, Ovation, Eagle, Acclaim, the production runs were shorter and there was more change in some parts.  You are more likely to get grounded due to parts unavailability in my opinion.  I think the ones with G1000 may be stuck with what they have - there is no mention of NXi upgrade in the Status and Outlook presentation.

Also no-one is making an efficient 4 cylinder SEL complex retractable.  Fuel prices are rising and probably will stay high.  Many are making 6 cylinder SEL complex (retractable and non-retractable.  I think the J will be in more demand and the value of the J will hold up better.

Just my view.

  Very good points.  I saw the thread in Mooney being for sale again after I posted this question.  I was wondering about the future value of a J, and I think you hit the nail on the head.  Nothing else out there has that mix of capabilities and economical operations.  
 

as a side note, I’m based out of Coeur d Alene Idaho.  Aerostar is based here.  They obviously don’t make planes, BUT…. They support the existing fleet, and what I have heard, excellent parts availability, and fast lead times on what they don’t have in stock.  I’m hoping someone can do something similar  if mooney decides to close up again.  

[bmcconnaha]

47 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

I'd keep it and fly the heck out of it. A portable o2 system is no big deal, especially if nobody rides in back. Set up your own transfill rig to fill it frequently and economically if needed since the bottle is smaller. Or get your AME to give you an unlimited Rx for o2 at your local home health outfit like I did... Cheap refills turned overnight.

You'll never get the money out of your improvements except as enjoyment as you use it. I'm not sure if we're in an asset bubble or runaway inflation, so I can't tell if a long body will be cheaper in the future versus now. You'd be trading at peak market now, and unless you found a very particular buyer that recognizes the value in what you've done, you'll take a bath on the move. And then you'll like turn around and sink a lot into the next plane! Maybe that's your hobby?

My J has been a perfect plane for me and I'm continuously improving her. I can get by without ice protection for my area and pleasure trips (I don't fly for work much). I think about moving up, but the J is such a perfect mix of capability, performance, and economy.

Sent from my LM-V405 using Tapatalk
 

I have a mountain high cylinder and O2D2 system strapped to the backseat, and it works amazing.  Flown a ton over the last month (40 hours) and half has been above 12500 on O2.  Still 500 psi in the bottle.  Built in o2 is more of an aesthetics thing.  I hate to say it, but I’ve tricked out two planes including engines in the last four years, so maybe THAT is my hobby, lol.  

[KB4]

15 minutes ago, bmcconnaha said:

Flown a ton over the last month (40 hours) and half has been above 12500 on O2.

Will this continue to be your mission profile?  If so seems like some more Ovation speed and goodies are in your future.  Don’t think I would go all out with a G3X GFC5 then sell.  Which it sounds like you will sell. Get the panel modern enough that’s it. Then move on to your O. 

[bmcconnaha]

1 hour ago, KB4 said:

Will this continue to be your mission profile?  If so seems like some more Ovation speed and goodies are in your future.  Don’t think I would go all out with a G3X GFC5 then sell.  Which it sounds like you will sell. Get the panel modern enough that’s it. Then move on to your O. 

As far as the elevation? Yes, but the 390 is a substantial improvement over the 360 when climbing in to the teens.  I’ve had it at 17500 before, but that’s nothing I’d do on the regular unless I had a turbo.  11500-15500 is where I’m usually at.  I’m over 160kts true at those elevations.  If an O driver could chime in on rich of peak fuel flows at those altitudes, that would help.  FF performance profile for an ovation lists just over 180kts and 14.4 gph is that accurate? I’m 162 kts or so and 9.7 GPH.   I really should just find an ovation to fly and see what I think.  Might be a very expensive flight tho.  

[carusoam]

15.5gph @2500rpm 175kias 12.5k’  ROP

12gph @2500rpm 165kias 12.5k’ barely LOP…

 

Rough numbers from fuzzy memory of an O1 in cruise…

O3 powered 2550 rpm because you can… for some additional fuel…

See if that helps any…?

-a-

[dlthig]

41 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

The heart wants what the heart wants.  While I prefer the J you are obviously longing for a long body.  Since most of us only own these things for our personal gratification, why not going ahead and get what you really want and be done with it?

Jim

Sometimes you just hold your breath and write the check. The downside is you are into your current J for probably more than you can get. I suppose you just need to accept the delta and look at where you'd be with an O/S. Thinking while I'm typing, contact GMAX and tell him what you want and when he gets it he calls you and brokers your J. 

[bmcconnaha]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

15.5gph @2500rpm 175kias 12.5k’  ROP

12gph @2500rpm 165kias 12.5k’ barely LOP…

 

Rough numbers from fuzzy memory of an O1 in cruise…

O3 powered 2550 rpm because you can… for some additional fuel…

See if that helps any…?

-a-

175kias or true? 

[bmcconnaha]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

The heart wants what the heart wants.  While I prefer the J you are obviously longing for a long body.  Since most of us only own these things for our personal gratification, why not going ahead and get what you really want and be done with it?

Jim

If it was that simple, I’d have the O2 or O3 in my hangar.  Heck, I’d have a Citation mustang if I could… but, as far as I can tell, a nice long body is going to cost me 100-125k more, min.  Especially if I hold to finding something low time, and no damage history like I have now.  Also, I’ve never flown an ovation for more than ten mins.  I wasn’t a mooney owner at that time, so I really have little to compare it to.  I should try and round up someone willing to give me a ride an o2 or o3.   

[bmcconnaha]

43 minutes ago, dlthig said:

Sometimes you just hold your breath and write the check. The downside is you are into your current J for probably more than you can get. I suppose you just need to accept the delta and look at where you'd be with an O/S. Thinking while I'm typing, contact GMAX and tell him what you want and when he gets it he calls you and brokers your J. 

I had him keep me on the list.  

Edited October 20, 2021 by bmcconnaha

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

175kias or true? 

Ground Speed… measured using GPS… over years… going between the same airports… 
 

The challenge with using TAS as measured… the OAT gauge and ASI in my ship has analog dials… and are only as good as your eyeballs and drive for accuracy…

GPS is a direct readout always available at a glance… then add/sub wind speed.. 

 

it turns out… knowing exactly how fast I’m going through the air, at any one time, isn’t that important…

 

How quickly I cover the ground is why I have this plane…

 

In my Acclaim (future)… it will be all digital, with wind arrows and TAS automatically updated on one of the fancy color screens… 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[1980Mooney]

10 hours ago, carusoam said:

15.5gph @2500rpm 175kias 12.5k’  ROP

12gph @2500rpm 165kias 12.5k’ barely LOP…

Rough numbers from fuzzy memory of an O1 in cruise…

O3 powered 2550 rpm because you can… for some additional fuel…

See if that helps any…?

 

9 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

175kias or true? 

True.  More than 20 years ago I took my J to Rocket Engineering and had the 300 HP IO550A installed per the Missile conversion. I get about the same real world performance as carusoam quotes for an O1.

What you currently have is a J at the top of its class - it is in the real sweet spot of performance, economy, efficiency and UL.  You have invested a ton in it (which you will not entirely recoup if you sell).

If you go and buy an Ovation it may or may not make book numbers...every plane is essentially handmade and has variation.  Yes you will get some more speed but you will also get a lot more fuel burn.  You might buy one with AC or FIKI which you do not have on a J.  You will get more kneeroom in the back seat and more space for luggage....but you may actually get less UL.  You will have a plane with more weight on the nose gear than the J which is really bad news on soft taxiways or strips.  You will have 2 more cylinders to maintain and more maintenance cost.  If you go the Acclaim turbo route yes you will have even more speed up higher and even more fuel burn and more maintenance.  And more uncertainty of Mooney Corp support for unique factory only parts.

If money is no object then go for it - Ovation or Acclaim. (Actually buy 2 so you have one that you can quickly strip parts off of!) 

Personally, if you dump your J and buy an R or TN ...or U or V...., I think that you will look back and wish that you never sold the particular J that you have today. (but the flip side is that you will make some new buyer very happy!)

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[bmcconnaha]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

True.  More than 20 years ago I took my J to Rocket Engineering and had the 300 HP IO550A installed per the Missile conversion. I get about the same real world performance as carusoam quotes for an O1.

What you currently have is a J at the top of its class - it is in the real sweet spot of performance, economy, efficiency and UL.  You have invested a ton in it (which you will not entirely recoup if you sell).

If you go and buy an Ovation it may or may not make book numbers...every plane is essentially handmade and has variation.  Yes you will get some more speed but you will also get a lot more fuel burn.  You might buy one with AC or FIKI which you do not have on a J.  You will get more kneeroom in the back seat and more space for luggage....but you may actually get less UL.  You will have a plane with more weight on the nose gear than the J which is really bad news on soft taxiways or strips.  You will have 2 more cylinders to maintain and more maintenance cost.  If you go the Acclaim turbo route yes you will have even more speed up higher and even more fuel burn and more maintenance.  And more uncertainty of Mooney Corp support for unique factory only parts.

If money is no object then go for it - Ovation or Acclaim. (Actually buy 2 so you have one that you can quickly strip parts off of!) 

Personally, if you dump your J and buy an R or TN ...or U or V...., I think that you will look back and wish that you never sold the particular J that you have today. (but the flip side is that you will make some new buyer very happy!)

 

thanks for the reply.  I think you are right.  I am going to call and place the order for the stuff to finish the panel.  

[ArtVandelay]

thanks for the reply.  I think you are right.  I am going to call and place the order for the stuff to finish the panel.  

FYI, The Garmin stuff is like 6 months back ordered.

[bmcconnaha]

58 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

FYI, The Garmin stuff is like 6 months back ordered.

8-10weeks is thier current lead times for the equipment i am getting.. 

[Mcstealth]

Get a 231 that is already set up. You get the speed without needing to spend a ton.

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Mcstealth

[bmcconnaha]

3 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

Get a 231 that is already set up. You get the speed without needing to spend a ton.

 

why? im faster than a 231 down low, and they are margianlly faster on the altitudes id be flying at.  id rather a long body if i am going to make the swap.  

[Mcstealth]

Simply because you can go higher, get higher faster after 8000ft or so, and go quite a bit faster than 160 at altitude. 

My opinion only. 

[ArtVandelay]

I was just informed today that my gfc 500 autopilot with servos has shipped early. install starts next monday. it was ordered from Garmin around september 22.
So for autopilots it seems about a month.
Mike
 

Still waiting on my G3X, ordered in June.

[A64Pilot]

My advice is if your going to buy, don’t put another nickel in what you have, if you put another 60k or so in it, your not getting most of it back when you sell.

The flip side or that is try as much as possible to buy an airplane that’s configured like you want, it will be much cheaper then buying one only to replace the panel.

[thinwing]

On 10/19/2021 at 2:33 PM, bmcconnaha said:

fourteen months ago i bought a 1990 M20J with 1880 hours total time, no damage history.  nice enough airplane, but stock interior, original paint in ok shape. stepped down from an SR22 turbo.  Ive been upgrading it throughout the last year.  things ive done:

IO390

hartzell top prop

precise flight speed brakes 

led lights all around the exterior

new nav/com and transponder for ads b in and out...

thorough annual, and correction of rigging. 

ton more small things, but those are the major ones....

plane is currently in san antonio getting a new interior from aero comfort....

heres where it gets muddy.  after the interior gets done, i want to finish the panel (g3x and GFC500, plus some other small stuff, cies senders, new radio for com 2 etc) multiple quotes for avionics (we are a an avionics dealer, but not garmin) put that at about 58k to finish the panel.  I plan to paint the plane down the road if i keep it.  another 20k.  i dont see me being into this for less than 260k all in.  thats a ton for a J, but its very unique with the 390, and performs well.  it meets my mission for travel for me solo, or with one passenger, and does it well (flew from idaho to taxas at 13500, one fuel stop, 162kts true at 13500, 9.7GPH).  no one has ever sat in the back seat.

thats the good.  the bad: a big bore 4cyl will never be as smooth as an io550 OR tsio540.  no FIKI.  no built in o2 (i prefer to fly at 11500-15500)

should i finish this airplane and fly the heck out of this new IO390? its a consistent 162-167kts true, or cut my losses and buy an ovation or bravo?  

 

you live in cour d alene....turbo,fiki,built in o2,dual alt,dual main batteries =Bravo

 

On 10/19/2021 at 2:33 PM, bmcconnaha said:

fourteen months ago i bought a 1990 M20J with 1880 hours total time, no damage history.  nice enough airplane, but stock interior, original paint in ok shape. stepped down from an SR22 turbo.  Ive been upgrading it throughout the last year.  things ive done:

IO390

hartzell top prop

precise flight speed brakes 

led lights all around the exterior

new nav/com and transponder for ads b in and out...

thorough annual, and correction of rigging. 

ton more small things, but those are the major ones....

plane is currently in san antonio getting a new interior from aero comfort....

heres where it gets muddy.  after the interior gets done, i want to finish the panel (g3x and GFC500, plus some other small stuff, cies senders, new radio for com 2 etc) multiple quotes for avionics (we are a an avionics dealer, but not garmin) put that at about 58k to finish the panel.  I plan to paint the plane down the road if i keep it.  another 20k.  i dont see me being into this for less than 260k all in.  thats a ton for a J, but its very unique with the 390, and performs well.  it meets my mission for travel for me solo, or with one passenger, and does it well (flew from idaho to taxas at 13500, one fuel stop, 162kts true at 13500, 9.7GPH).  no one has ever sat in the back seat.

thats the good.  the bad: a big bore 4cyl will never be as smooth as an io550 OR tsio540.  no FIKI.  no built in o2 (i prefer to fly at 11500-15500)

should i finish this airplane and fly the heck out of this new IO390? its a consistent 162-167kts true, or cut my losses and buy an ovation or bravo?