Mooney factory for sale

[RobertGary1]

11 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

I am not sure who this would be marketing towards.  A glance at controller.com I can get a 2007 Ovation with a full glass panel and all the bells and whistles for $319,000.  I am not sure I personally would go for an E, J, K for $500,000 just because it is new, if I can get something with so much more for so much less.  This is just one example.  

So, if I have the money burning a hole in my pocket, and saw two panels, side by side, one with what you suggest and the other with full glass, autopilot, and comfortable interior for $200,000 less, even though it is 16 years old (at first glance it looks newer than your example) I think I know which I would choose but that is just me personally.

I really hate to say this but the 20 somethings immediately know we're from an older generation by the fact we're flying a Mooney. When you sit in a Clorox bottle everything feels more modern, luxury car like. The Mooney feels like a J-3 to these kids.

There was a whole viral thing going around last year of who flies what airplane. When they showed a Mooney of course they showed an old white guy. Its their image.

 

-Robert

[Fly Boomer]

8 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

To save on that $160K, just buy a maintenance shop.

As our Senator Fulbright used to say "Billion here; billion there; pretty soon you are talking real money".

[rpcc]

Does anyone have a high level P&l for mooney now?  

[donkaye, MCFI]

13 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I really hate to say this but the 20 somethings immediately know we're from an older generation by the fact we're flying a Mooney. When you sit in a Clorox bottle everything feels more modern, luxury car like. The Mooney feels like a J-3 to these kids.

-Robert

Well, that depends on the Mooney.

[RobertGary1]

17 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Well, that depends on the Mooney.

Kind of old compared to

 

 

[rpcc]

42 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Well, that depends on the Mooney.

Hi Don - do you think there is a market for "certified" aircraft with updated electronics such as yours?  It seems like mooney's competition is all of the existing airframes out there - really why would you buy a new one when you can get very close for 50% less.   

[philiplane]

The main obstacle to new Mooney production is the sheer number of man hours to build the airframe. It consumes about 3-4 times what it takes to build a Cirrus. And there is no way to automate the production, or to reduce hours in the build process without extensive redesign of the M20 airframe. 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Kind of old compared to

 

 

Where is the gear handle?  Pffft!

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

Kind of old compared to

 

 

Robert, I'm going to have to disagree with you.  Having flown the G1000 up thru the NXi version, my functionality in a number of regards out performs the NXi.  G1000 is old technology.  Speaking of "old", the backup instruments in the above picture are old mechanical ones whose lifespan without overhaul is less than the digital equivalent.

[donkaye, MCFI]

1 hour ago, rpcc said:

Hi Don - do you think there is a market for "certified" aircraft with updated electronics such as yours?  It seems like mooney's competition is all of the existing airframes out there - really why would you buy a new one when you can get very close for 50% less.   

I would say surpass the functionality of a new airplane with the G1000NXi--which is why I chose the upgrade path I did rather than buy a new airplane.  What did I lose?  20 Knots.  What did I not lose?  $500,000.

As nice and fun to fly as the new Ultras are, it's hard to compete with a well maintained older airframe and the best in a new upgraded panel.

[T. Peterson]

13 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

I am not sure who this would be marketing towards.  A glance at controller.com I can get a 2007 Ovation with a full glass panel and all the bells and whistles for $319,000.  I am not sure I personally would go for an E, J, K for $500,000 just because it is new, if I can get something with so much more for so much less.  This is just one example.  

So, if I have the money burning a hole in my pocket, and saw two panels, side by side, one with what you suggest and the other with full glass, autopilot, and comfortable interior for $200,000 less, even though it is 16 years old (at first glance it looks newer than your example) I think I know which I would choose but that is just me personally.

Your point is well taken, but how many deals like that are out there? How long before the supply dries up? I am not making an argument as I simply don’t know, but I sure wish Mooney could survive as more than a parts house. We fly 30, 40 and 50 year old Mooneys and love them. I would love it if Mooney could build exactly what they already know how to build. No corrosion worries and all the other stuff that goes along with ancient planes.

I am sure I am just whistling in the dark, but if it takes a million to buy a Cirrus, wouldn’t a brand new J or K sell if it was half half that much?

[PT20J]

13 minutes ago, donkaye said:

As nice and fun to fly as the new Ultras are, it's hard to compete with a well maintained older airframe and the best in a new upgraded panel.

That has always been the problem -- an airplane manufacturer always ends up competing with it's used models once there is a significant number of them out there. There just aren't enough differences in airframes over time to justify the increased cost to buy new. And, most of the advances are in avionics. Mooney is on the ropes and Garmin is doing quite well. 

[T. Peterson]

37 minutes ago, philiplane said:

The main obstacle to new Mooney production is the sheer number of man hours to build the airframe. It consumes about 3-4 times what it takes to build a Cirrus. And there is no way to automate the production, or to reduce hours in the build process without extensive redesign of the M20 airframe. 

This is probably the nut that has to cracked. No point in talking of marketing if the manufacturing obstacles you point out cannot be overcome. Sure wish there was someone out there smart enough to overcome them.

[PT20J]

When the supply of good used Mooneys and Bonanzas eventually dries up, there will be lots of well-equipped, modern Cirrus' to choose from.

[RobertGary1]

31 minutes ago, donkaye said:

Robert, I'm going to have to disagree with you.  Having flown the G1000 up thru the NXi version, my functionality in a number of regards out performs the NXi.  G1000 is old technology.  Speaking of "old", the backup instruments in the above picture are old mechanical ones whose lifespan without overhaul is less than the digital equivalent.

You may be right based on functionality. But the generation of us that see a top equipped Mooney as "modern" is greying. The airframe design looks like its from the 1960's for a reason.

 

-Robert

[rpcc]

Ok .... everyone pump the breaks a bit.  Pick a platform - j, ovation, bravo - what do you think a factory certification should contain and what would you pay for it?

[LANCECASPER]

44 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

I am sure I am just whistling in the dark, but if it takes a million to buy a Cirrus, wouldn’t a brand new J or K sell if it was half half that much?

You can't build it for half of that, let alone build it for 3/4 of that and make a profit.

[1980Mooney]

54 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

This is probably the nut that has to cracked. No point in talking of marketing if the manufacturing obstacles cannot be overcome. Sure wish there was someone out there smart enough to overcome them.

There is someone out there smart enough to overcome the obstacles - actually 2. Their name is the Klapmeier brothers, Alan Klapmeier and Dale Klapmeier. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[toto]

6 hours ago, philiplane said:

The main obstacle to new Mooney production is the sheer number of man hours to build the airframe. It consumes about 3-4 times what it takes to build a Cirrus. And there is no way to automate the production, or to reduce hours in the build process without extensive redesign of the M20 airframe. 

As discussed yesterday, I don’t think you need a fully automated production line or a massive reduction in build time. Bring a book of orders and turn some capable engineers loose on the M20 airframe. If the business is there, the engineers will find opportunities for ongoing incremental improvement in build efficiency. But this won’t happen if they build one airplane a year. 

 

ETA:  I removed this section from my post because it doesn't seem productive, and the paragraph above is the point I was trying to reiterate.

Do you have a reference that puts a Cirrus factory build time under 1500 hours? That seems impossibly low. The estimates I have seen here on MS for a Mooney factory build are normally in the 4-5k range.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, donkaye said:

Robert, I'm going to have to disagree with you.  Having flown the G1000 up thru the NXi version, my functionality in a number of regards out performs the NXi.  G1000 is old technology.  Speaking of "old", the backup instruments in the above picture are old mechanical ones whose lifespan without overhaul is less than the digital equivalent.

Ah yes, one of those old 2010 model Cirrus airframes with dual factory installed AHRS gyros, plus the mechanical spares.  What do the 2010 Mooney’s use for back up instruments? 
The newer ones have a Mid Continent SAM.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

This is probably the nut that has to cracked. No point in talking of marketing if the manufacturing obstacles you point out cannot be overcome. Sure wish there was someone out there smart enough to overcome them.

If only those Texans would work twice as fast for half the money. Move the factory to somewhere that workers have no rights!

[donkaye, MCFI]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

You may be right based on functionality. But the generation of us that see a top equipped Mooney as "modern" is greying. The airframe design looks like its from the 1960's for a reason.

 

-Robert

Maybe, but because of my confidence in and having viewed their structural integrity during assembly in Kerrville, where I would take a Mooney into turbulence and feel completely comfortable like last week coming out of Hayward with winds 26G51, I wouldn't even consider getting into a Cirrus in those conditions.

[toto]

6 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I really hate to say this but the 20 somethings immediately know we're from an older generation by the fact we're flying a Mooney. When you sit in a Clorox bottle everything feels more modern, luxury car like. The Mooney feels like a J-3 to these kids.

I’m not sure why everyone is bad mouthing Mooney on MooneySpace today, but this just is not an experience I’ve had with any young aviator talking about Mooneys. 

The brand is just exclusive enough that many new to flying haven’t been in one before, and because they’re almost all retractables, there’s a general fear of complexity and insurability. But I have never heard a young aviator say they aren’t interested in a Mooney because it looks like a dated design or that it looks like an “old person’s airplane.”

Is this really a comment that you’ve heard 20-something aviators say when looking at a Mooney on the ramp?

The comment I get more than any other from young aviators is “I heard those things are really fast. How fast does it go?”

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

If only those Texans would work twice as fast for half the money. Move the factory to somewhere that workers have no rights!

"Move the factory somewhere that the workers have no rights"?!.....No need to move it- - Texas is already in the Top 5 in that category.  The only states that routinely top it are Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi and North Carolina.  

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, toto said:

Do you have a reference that puts a Cirrus factory build time under 1500 hours? That seems impossibly low. 

The estimates I have seen here on MS for a Mooney factory build are normally in the 4-5k range. 

As discussed yesterday, I don’t think you need a fully automated production line or a massive reduction in build time. Bring a book of orders and turn some capable engineers loose on the M20 airframe. If the business is there, the engineers will find opportunities for ongoing incremental improvement in build efficiency. But this won’t happen if they build one airplane a year. 

You participated in the discussion on this same topic back in June, 2022.  In that topic both @GeeBee and @Fly Boomer reported that Jonny Pollack said at MooneyMax 2022 that "Jonny Pollack said at Mooney Max it takes 9000 man hours to create a Mooney. He said it is a very labor intensive airplane to produce"

I have to assume that the CEO of Mooney, Jonny Pollack, knows how many man hours it takes to build the plane.  It is not in the range that you quote.  Perhaps you forgot about this discussion.