Mooney Type Certificate for Sale?

[Kevin Harberg]

I recently discovered the passing of a great aviation AND Mooney enthusast, Fred Quarles. Fred Quarles purchased the M-18 type certificate and made the plane available to the public in the form of a homebuilt in the 1970's (Mooney Mite M-18X). It appears that the type certificate is available for sale by daughter Ellen Michelle Quarles via a post in the Mooney Mite Owners Forum of MooneySpace.

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, Kevin Harberg said:

I recently discovered the passing of a great aviation AND Mooney enthusast, Fred Quarles. Fred Quarles purchased the M-18 type certificate and made the plane available to the public in the form of a homebuilt in the 1970's (Mooney Mite M-18X). It appears that the type certificate is available for sale by daughter Ellen Michelle Quarles via a post in the Mooney Mite Owners Forum of MooneySpace.

Looks like the kind of thing @M20Doc would be interested in. 

[carusoam]

@Ellen first made contact here…

Thanks for tying the details together Kevin!

Best regards,

-a-

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Kevin Harberg]

I was thinking that manufacturing and production rights followed the type certificate holder. Type certification is a costly venture.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, Kevin Harberg said:

I was thinking that manufacturing and production rights followed the type certificate holder. Type certification is a costly venture.

The problem with owning a TC is that without a Production Certificate what you can do with it is limited, you may have the rights, but lack the capability.

[RobertGary1]

On 10/14/2021 at 7:27 AM, A64Pilot said:

The problem with owning a TC is that without a Production Certificate what you can do with it is limited, you may have the rights, but lack the capability.

Like when the cops tell you you have the right to remain silent. 

[carusoam]

Shrek : Donkey, you HAVE the right to remain silent. What you lack is the capacity.
 

-a-

[Guest]

I’m not really sure what one would do with the type certificate?  It’s not like there is huge demand for Mites. It might be better to donate it to the Smithsonian Museum.

Clarence

[N201MKTurbo]

What is the deal with a type certificate? Does it belong to an entity or does it just exist. 
 

It seems like it is kind of worthless unless you have the drawings for all the parts in the airplane. You would need to get PMA for all the parts and a production certificate for the plane if you wanted to make more. A lot less work than starting from scratch, but still a lot of work.

personally, I would give it to a company like Univar in Colorado. They are most likely to do something constructive with it.

[markgrue]

I believe that if you have the type Certificate you can build new aircraft that meet the requirements set out in it.  If you do not have the production Certificate then you have to get each aircraft bought off by the FAA.   This is the route most manufacturers take as they develop their production line.  Once they get a line setup and get the qa in place along with supplier qualifications and oversight then you can apply for the production Certificate.   The production Certificate simply allows you to certify your aircraft on your own with occasional inspections by the FAA.   If you are only building a few aircraft then there is no requirement to ever get a production Certificate. 

 

Please correct me if I am wrong. 

Mark 

[Kevin Harberg]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

What is the deal with a type certificate? Does it belong to an entity or does it just exist. 
 

It seems like it is kind of worthless unless you have the drawings for all the parts in the airplane. You would need to get PMA for all the parts and a production certificate for the plane if you wanted to make more. A lot less work than starting from scratch, but still a lot of work.

personally, I would give it to a company like Univar in Colorado. They are most likely to do something constructive with it.

Fred Quarles had purchased the type certificate along with 1600 sq ft of Mooney factory type certificated drawings and provided 324 pages of prints complete with a list of approximately 4000 parts. Fred provided an assembly manual c/w drawings to assist homebuilders in completing his M-18X aircraft. Of interest was his intent to produce a certified Mite utilizing updated tooling techniques and the installation of a 100hp 0-200 powerplant. Now, some 40+ years later, the turbo charged powerplants produced by Rotax would be an ideal fit for the 25,000ft wing.

Although thoroughly enjoying ownership of an M-18X, I'm still dreaming of the potential of this incredible design.

Kevin  

Edited October 17, 2021 by Kevin Harberg
Spelling "thoroughly"

[Matt Hamel]

Does the type cert allow you to build new aircraft? Could it be converted to a full metal aircraft?

[Kevin Harberg]

1 hour ago, Matt Hamel said:

Does the type cert allow you to build new aircraft? Could it be converted to a full metal aircraft?

I am not familiar with the entire process, but if you were to contact a couple of fellows in Alaska, they would know the complete process. They purchased the type certificate, parts, and tooling for the Helio Courier from the owners estate. An interesting YouTube video explains the steps taken to build this certified aircraft once again. It appears as though they are permitted to make changes including a new engine design. Here is the link 

 

[KSMooniac]

4 hours ago, Matt Hamel said:

Does the type cert allow you to build new aircraft? Could it be converted to a full metal aircraft?

If you hold the type certificate AND have all of the drawings and specifications required to produce parts and assemble the aircraft, then you could conceivably build a new one.  Without a production certificate, however, you would have to have a ton of FAA and/or DAR involvement to verify conformance with all of the engineering data.  That will take a lot of effort to approve every part and assembly on the way to building a full aircraft that can receive an airworthiness certificate.  

Converting to a "full metal aircraft" is another problem entirely.  That would be a major engineering change with approval needed by the FAA and/or a DER, along with new analysis, structural testing, etc.  If you have all of the original engineering data, it would give you a bit of a head start in terms of loads and geometry to design a metal solution.  At the end of the day, I doubt that effort would ever be worth the expense unless you found some engineers wanting a fun retirement project and don't want to get paid for the work.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

Converting to a "full metal aircraft" is another problem entirely.  That would be a major engineering change

It would simply be a reversion from U & V to Ovatiom 3, Acclaim and TN. I wouldn't think it would be that far.

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, Kevin Harberg said:

I am not familiar with the entire process, but if you were to contact a couple of fellows in Alaska, they would know the complete process. They purchased the type certificate, parts, and tooling for the Helio Courier from the owners estate. An interesting YouTube video explains the steps taken to build this certified aircraft once again. It appears as though they are permitted to make changes including a new engine design. Here is the link 

 

I didn’t watch the video, but without a Production Certificate you can’t produce an airplane and sell it to the general public. I’m nearly certain that you can’t produce anything, even parts. A PMA would give you parts, but you would be unable to assemble them into an airplane.

A PC would be enormously expensive to obtain and I’m sure take years to get. As far as I know Cirrus is the only one to do it in recent past. There may be others that I’m unaware of. However you can buy a PC along with the factory and start producing airplanes tomorrow if you have the required people, QC, DMIR’s etc.

The PC is the only real value in Mooney, TC’s especially if they don’t have all the tooling etc don’t have much value. Assumption is all the drawings are kept by the TC holder, without drawings you really don’t have anything, just something you can frame and hang on the wall.

If you own the TC, you have the “right” to do anything, having the right and the ability to pay for Certification are two completely different things.

[Kevin Harberg]

8 hours ago, Matt Hamel said:

Does the type cert allow you to build new aircraft? Could it be converted to a full metal aircraft?

So all of the prints are at the Smithsonian and they are available.  The Mites original cockpit and firewall forward is all metal. The Fred Quarles Estate and/or the Smithsonian may have the current drawings for the metal fuselage (headrest to tail cone). The certified M-18 fuselage section aft of cockpit were wood. The wing was wood and the vertical and horizontal stabs have wooden spars. Here's a photo of the updated M-18 rear metal fuselage attached to the original metal tubing cockpit and motor mount.

 

[KSMooniac]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

It would simply be a reversion from U & V to Ovatiom 3, Acclaim and TN. I wouldn't think it would be that far.

I assumed this question was regarding the M18 Mite, not the M20 series.

[1980Mooney]

10 hours ago, Matt Hamel said:

Does the type cert allow you to build new aircraft? Could it be converted to a full metal aircraft?

 

8 hours ago, Kevin Harberg said:

I am not familiar with the entire process, but if you were to contact a couple of fellows in Alaska, they would know the complete process. They purchased the type certificate, parts, and tooling for the Helio Courier from the owners estate. An interesting YouTube video explains the steps taken to build this certified aircraft once again. It appears as though they are permitted to make changes including a new engine design. Here is the link 

 

 

5 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

If you hold the type certificate AND have all of the drawings and specifications required to produce parts and assemble the aircraft, then you could conceivably build a new one.  Without a production certificate, however, you would have to have a ton of FAA and/or DAR involvement to verify conformance with all of the engineering data.  That will take a lot of effort to approve every part and assembly on the way to building a full aircraft that can receive an airworthiness certificate.  

Converting to a "full metal aircraft" is another problem entirely.  That would be a major engineering change with approval needed by the FAA and/or a DER, along with new analysis, structural testing, etc.  If you have all of the original engineering data, it would give you a bit of a head start in terms of loads and geometry to design a metal solution.  At the end of the day, I doubt that effort would ever be worth the expense unless you found some engineers wanting a fun retirement project and don't want to get paid for the work.

The Helio Courier was an "all metal" design from the beginning.  If I am not mistaken, the guys/video above are just building an all metal wing per the original design, specs, materials and certification.  The article below by @Kevin Harberg indicates that the current Mite M-18X design is comprised of Finland birch plywood design wrapped around the entire wing surface, top and bottom.  

I suspect redesigning the Mite M-18X to hang the fuselage on a newly designed "all metal wing" instead of Finland birch plywood will be a costly effort and like certifying a new aircraft design.  I concur with @KSMooniac.

Heavy Metal (Mooney M-18X C-GXTR)

[M20F]

Petrified wood has metal strength but is still wood, the FAA hates this one little trick when you are building a M-18 from scratch. 

[A64Pilot]

I watched the video, they are obviously building an Experimental aircraft.

That doesn’t do anything towards a Cert aircraft, nor Certification. What is that engine?

I applaud their work, I’d love a Helio Courier myself, looked hard at one before buying the Maule, but the engine and I believe a wing AD sealed the deal.

There are a very few Turbine ones out there, the Helio Stallion. It uses Thrush Exhaust, an owner in South Carolina owes me a ride for repairing his exhaust. I should have flown up there for the ride. Stallion was a bigger aircraft, think of it as a better looking Pilatus Porter.

[Kevin Harberg]

13 hours ago, M20F said:

Petrified wood has metal strength but is still wood, the FAA hates this one little trick when you are building a M-18 from scratch. 

The Mooney Aircraft Inc. published Manual 889 (Approved Aircraft Repairs - Wood) which clearly identifies approved inspection and repair procedures for all Mooney wooden components. Replaced or repaired wooden components, when approved procedures are followed, produce "Certified Aircraft Components". Service Bulletins and/or AD's have been issued for continuing the "Certified" status of wooden Mooneys. Mooney M-18 aircraft remain "Certified" when wooden structures such as the wing are modified under approved STC's such as the STC granted for wrapping the entire wing in aircraft grade plywood.  

[Kevin Harberg]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I watched the video, they are obviously building an Experimental aircraft.

That doesn’t do anything towards a Cert aircraft, nor Certification. What is that engine?

I applaud their work, I’d love a Helio Courier myself, looked hard at one before buying the Maule, but the engine and I believe a wing AD sealed the deal.

There are a very few Turbine ones out there, the Helio Stallion. It uses Thrush Exhaust, an owner in South Carolina owes me a ride for repairing his exhaust. I should have flown up there for the ride. Stallion was a bigger aircraft, think of it as a better looking Pilatus Porter.

Within the first 45 seconds of the video, it is clearly stated that this company is bringing back Helio Courier for "Certified" production.

[Fly Boomer]

54 minutes ago, Kevin Harberg said:

Within the first 45 seconds of the video, it is clearly stated that this company is bringing back Helio Courier for "Certified" production.

While I envy their enthusiasm, I wonder if they have discussed this with the FAA?

[Matt Hamel]

It is such a shame that the regulations make this all but impossible. I really think a slightly modified design for the m-18 all metal, and some smaller engine to fit inside the cowl would be perfect! Maybe an experimental dream one day. Also optional retracts to help with insurance. But lets be real half the fun is the wheels coming up.

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Matt Hamel