Newbie Question - 1970 MOONEY M20C - Value

[mattpg]

Hi there,

I'm located in Canada, and looking to purchase a first plane. I know aircraft valuations are high atm (due to covid + buy/demand, etc).

I did find a 1970 Mooney M20C with a local dealer, just wondering value wise if it adds up, or if it's overvalued/overpriced. They are asking just under $59,000USD - Specs on the plane are as follows:

 

TT: 4,766.3
LYCOMING O-360-A1D

1,129 SMOH

Prop Overhaul done May, 2021

EGT101 Monroy Traffic Watch

ATD-300 Narco AA30 Intercom

Garmin GNS430 w/GI-106

King KA134 Audio Panel

Apollo SL40 COM

King KR87 ADF

Narco NAV825 w/Glideslope

Narco DME890

Narco AT150 Transponder

PC Autopilot System

Wingtip Strobes

52 US Gallons

120 lb Baggage Area

Polished Spinner and Prop

Front Seat Shoulder Harnesses

Dual Press-to-talk Switches on Control Column

Tinted Visors

Electric Gear + Electric Flap

https://www.apexaircraft.com/inventory/?/listing/for-sale/202747527/1970-mooney-m20c-piston-single-aircraft?dlr=1&accountcrmid=617471&settingscrmid=617471

 

Thoughts?

[carusoam]

Matt,

Welcome aboard!

You know Canada is a big place, right?  
 

Have you compared ot known pricing sources?

There is a pricing calculator at the MooneyFlyer website people use for gathering a baseline…

Airframe

engine 

prop

interior

paint

Instrument panel

 

Add them all up to get the price…

Expect everything for sale has some negotiating margin built in…

Also expect that a competing buyer keeps low ball offers from being successful…

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[ShuRugal]

Panel is ancient for that asking price. Lot of old heavy radio gear. What's the empty weight and CG look like? Is the 430 at least WAAS?

Engine halfway through recommended overhaul... Has the current owner been having oil analysis performed? That data, if available, could help you estimate how much life is left in that engine.

Electric gar and flaps is meh. I prefer the reliability and lower maintenance of manual, but it probably evens out in the wash either way.

Does the wing leveler actually work? What shape are the vacuum servos in?

That's a steep asking price for a C model, but not impossibly high if everything is in top shape.

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[mattpg]

19 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:

Panel is ancient for that asking price. Lot of old heavy radio gear. What's the empty weight and CG look like? Is the 430 at least WAAS?

Engine halfway through recommended overhaul... Has the current owner been having oil analysis performed? That data, if available, could help you estimate how much life is left in that engine.

Electric gar and flaps is meh. I prefer the reliability and lower maintenance of manual, but it probably evens out in the wash either way.

Does the wing leveler actually work? What shape are the vacuum servos in?

That's a steep asking price for a C model, but not impossibly high if everything is in top shape.

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W/B + CG is here: https://media.sandhills.com/doc.axd?id=7102641189&p=&ext=.pdf&dl=False&wt=False&checksum=wQhPggmH5IKgXbKICm3bt4LYwrxHVoejNg%2bjMOS5%2fpwDbY6k4bIXH9%2bymThQ%2fyZmY1anYBME5Tk%3d

1623.1 and 45.5

Looking through the logs, haven't seen oil analysis but I'll keep looking. I haven't heard back as of yet, but most definitely I'll keep those questions in mind.

TY for your help btw!

 

@carusoam: Haha fair, I'm located in Toronto, just a short drive away from the plane actually! Thank you, glad to be here!
I will absolutely look into that calculator! Thanks for your help

Edited October 6, 2021 by mattpg

[ShuRugal]

W/B + CG is here: https://media.sandhills.com/doc.axd?id=7102641189&p=&ext=.pdf&dl=False&wt=False&checksum=wQhPggmH5IKgXbKICm3bt4LYwrxHVoejNg%2bjMOS5%2fpwDbY6k4bIXH9%2bymThQ%2fyZmY1anYBME5Tk%3d
1623.1 and 45.5
Looking through the logs, haven't seen oil analysis but I'll keep looking. I haven't heard back as of yet, but most definitely I'll keep those questions in mind.
TY for your help btw!
 
@carusoam: Haha fair, I'm located in Toronto, just a short drive away from the plane actually! Thank you, glad to be here!
I will absolutely look into that calculator! Thanks for your help

That empty weight is not bad, only 40 lbs heavier than mine. The CG envelope on a C is 42-49 inches. 45.5 is acceptable (mine is 43.8), you'd still have to work to get it aft of limits (though it's definitely possible with heavy cargo and light pilots).

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[mattpg]

21 minutes ago, ShuRugal said:

That empty weight is not bad, only 40 lbs heavier than mine. The CG envelope on a C is 42-49 inches. 45.5 is acceptable (mine is 43.8), you'd still have to work to get it aft of limits (though it's definitely possible with heavy cargo and light pilots).

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If you had to give a max price you'd pay, based on the premise that everything checks out / is in decent shape, what would you give?

[JWJR]

I retired in 2017 as a sales manager in the Based on what’s listed and what’s sold recently (comparables)the price looks about right assuming it passes an extensive pre-buy.


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[JWJR]

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[ArtVandelay]

There’s a 1968 C on trade a plane for $40,000 but it needs paint job and it’s located in Calgary.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20C+RANGER&listing_id=2389962&s-type=aircraft

[carusoam]

Matt,

There is an interesting Mooney resource in Toronto…

Canada has two Mooney Service Centers.

The East one is around here often… always supplying great information regarding Mooney maintenance…

Are you familiar with….  https://tricityaero.com

Before you have a plane… you may want to become familiar with insurance…  we have a guy for that around here too…

Transition Training with somebody familiar with Mooneys is highly recommended…

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

On 10/6/2021 at 12:07 AM, mattpg said:

W/B + CG is here: https://media.sandhills.com/doc.axd?id=7102641189&p=&ext=.pdf&dl=False&wt=False&checksum=wQhPggmH5IKgXbKICm3bt4LYwrxHVoejNg%2bjMOS5%2fpwDbY6k4bIXH9%2bymThQ%2fyZmY1anYBME5Tk%3d

1623.1 and 45.5

Looking through the logs, haven't seen oil analysis but I'll keep looking. I haven't heard back as of yet, but most definitely I'll keep those questions in mind.

TY for your help btw!

 

@carusoam: Haha fair, I'm located in Toronto, just a short drive away from the plane actually! Thank you, glad to be here!
I will absolutely look into that calculator! Thanks for your help

Oil analysis is nearly worthless in this situation (and most others).   The year the overhaul was done and knowing that it hasn't sat for months at a time  is much more useful info for valuation. If it was overhauled 6 years ago,  the engine had a lot of value still - if it was 25 years ago, it should be priced as a runout (which doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t get a few years of safe service out of it). Beyond that, compression check, borescope exam, and inspecting the oil filter and suction screen for metal is about all you can do to assess the engine. 

On its face it looks a bit overpriced, but the market is nutty right now, and it’s hard to get a bargain out of a dealer even in a better market. Look at some other planes in the price range - if you still like this one, consider going forward with a prebuy inspect….

[mattpg]

 

On 10/7/2021 at 11:50 PM, DXB said:

Oil analysis is nearly worthless in this situation (and most others).   The year the overhaul was done and knowing that it hasn't sat for months at a time  is much more useful info for valuation. If it was overhauled 6 years ago,  the engine had a lot of value still - if it was 25 years ago, it should be priced as a runout (which doesn’t necessarily mean you won’t get a few years of safe service out of it). Beyond that, compression check, borescope exam, and inspecting the oil filter and suction screen for metal is about all you can do to assess the engine. 

On its face it looks a bit overpriced, but the market is nutty right now, and it’s hard to get a bargain out of a dealer even in a better market. Look at some other planes in the price range - if you still like this one, consider going forward with a prebuy inspect….

So I just got some information, turns it out it has flown regularly up until about a year ago. It's sat in a warm hanger due to plane-unrelated issues which I'm not sure I can disclose on the forum.

However, looking at the logs, it does seem like the plane did sit for months at a time during 08, so there has been some periods where the plane hasn't flown. I'm not sure if I have full access to the logs (seemingly some are missing) so I'll try to get better information when I take a look at the plane in-person. A pre-buy is definitely a requirement, and a lower price OFC / negotiation.

I'm kind of stuck where I do want to buy a plane within the next 3-4 months but due to Covid I know the market is semi-crazy, and not finding many M20s in Canada or locally. Market wise any idea if this is all related to Covid, or just buy/demand shortage of planes?

[DXB]

If it was flying regularly for an extended period before the current episode of sitting for a year, anything prior to that dormant year is not of great concern.  That dormant year is of great concern.  Corrosion could easily lead to need for multiple cylinder replacements, but if it passes inspect now, you will not know until you fly it for a while -IRAN or replacement of each cylinder will be 1800-2500 with labor, and you don't know how many you'll need to do.  Corrosion could also lead to the lifters/cam spalling in short order, which would mean major overhaul.  However it will take 200 hours of flying to feel confidence that won't happen.   Given that the overhaul was >12 years ago (recommended overhaul is 2000 hrs or 12 years), that also deserves a decrement in price.  I would value this engine at least 50% less than a value calculated from hours alone.  It's a total crap shoot whether you'll need major work on it soon.  Paying top dollar for a plane that sat unused for a full year is hard to stomach - it should be a strong negotiating point.  How much room to negotiate may depend on if the dealer owns it outright and paid too much, or they are listing for the owner with commission.  If the latter, they can negotiate with the owner on your behalf. I've no clue what is driving the nutty market for piston single planes - I imagine it's a drop in new plane production related to supply chain issues, but others here are more qualified to comment.

[mattpg]

I do know the plane is owned between two parties and is being sold on behalf of the dealer.

If I get any more information regarding hours/how long the plane has sat, I'll confirm here!

Thanks for your help as well!

[JWJR]

A prebuy at a MSC is great advice. I think someone mentioned there is one in or near Toronto. Remember all used planes are a gamble and what works today can break tomorrow.
C,E and F model prices are up however not like some other make and models such as the 172 and 182. Flight schools are buying up the decent 172 and Warriors at a steady clip and paying up big time. And many that learned in the 172 are stepping up to purchase the 182’s

Covid allowed some the free time to pursue flying and fast private travel is desirable during a pandemic. However in my goofy humble opinion the driving force in this current plane market is home values along with the Dow, S&P and NASDAQ
all at or near record highs. This has helped many overcome the number one obstacle to becoming an aircraft owner or even pursuing a private pilot certificate hence the supply/demand scenario with a sprinkle of inflation.

If your concerned with resale value all I can say is who knows …however if the plane has been maintained you will definitely get value for your dollar.The performance is similar to a 177 RG at just about 65% -70% of the cost.

I hope it all works out and your flying your own Mooney soon!


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[carusoam]

1 hour ago, mattpg said:

 

due to Covid I know the market is semi-crazy,

The world is always going to throw challenges your way…

Economy, employment, cost of fuel, inflation…. Pandemic.

Covid has taken a back seat for most people that have found a way….

Anyone wanting to sell a plane hasn’t been slowed by anything…

It is extra challenging to buy an airplane that is more than a couple of hundred miles away…

 

Scale of time is always funny…

The usual amount of time to find and purchase a forever-plane to be… is often about a year.

The act of buying a plane costs so much… it isn’t something that gets bought and sold often…

 

So…

Start the search…

Learn the planes…

watch the market…

Be ready to pull the trigger…

Four months goes by in the blink of an eye, at Mooney speeds…

Always be looking…

What gives you the power to negotiate… is the availability of another Mooney…

Two perfect Mooneys side by side… one will drop its price to get sold…. Or add something to sweeten the deal…

Or they wait for the right buyer to show up…. You might not be the right buyer for them…

 

Get started!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

@M20Doc is your new best friend (or should be).  He is a fantastic Mooney maintainer, runs an msc in Canada, and has a good handle on the market for M20s in Canada.  That’s where id go for a prebuy and I’d talk to him to see if he knows any other aircraft that might be available.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, mattpg said:

 

So I just got some information, turns it out it has flown regularly up until about a year ago. It's sat in a warm hanger due to plane-unrelated issues which I'm not sure I can disclose on the forum.

However, looking at the logs, it does seem like the plane did sit for months at a time during 08, so there has been some periods where the plane hasn't flown. I'm not sure if I have full access to the logs (seemingly some are missing) so I'll try to get better information when I take a look at the plane in-person. A pre-buy is definitely a requirement, and a lower price OFC / negotiation.

I'm kind of stuck where I do want to buy a plane within the next 3-4 months but due to Covid I know the market is semi-crazy, and not finding many M20s in Canada or locally. Market wise any idea if this is all related to Covid, or just buy/demand shortage of planes?

I don’t know the airplane, I do know the broker and the maintenance shop, he’s a specialist in cheap Annual inspections.  A thorough PPI is in order.

Clarence

[Jcmtl]

I was looking at that plane a few months ago, i’m also in canada and ended up buying an american reg 1968 C and leaving in N reg.  I paid 30k usd and engine is close to tbo.  But ive been flying it a lot and it runs totally fine, compressions all in the upper 70s.  Im told these engines could easily make it to 3000 hours.  If you need advice on how to buy an N reg plane in canada, pm me.  The market in the us is way better than here. 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Jc!

There are many Mooneys flying beyond TBO around here…

It helps to know the engine and how it has been operated before you get that far…

It can pretty challenging to get an engine to get 3000hrs on it… that’s a lot of miles covered!    About 450k nms…

Best regards,

-a-

[mattpg]

19 hours ago, M20Doc said:

I don’t know the airplane, I do know the broker and the maintenance shop, he’s a specialist in cheap Annual inspections.  A thorough PPI is in order.

Clarence

Going to take a look at the plane shortly. I'll be reaching out for a PPI if in the works, would love your help if it's available!

 

Thanks

Matt

 

@Jcmtl I've been watching the markets for a bit now, noticing many in that price range TBO. I'm not opposed to a TBO engine (to be fair, I'd rather price in that risk than not) - How did you find the import costs though, I've heard estimates of $10k, etc.

4 hours ago, Jcmtl said:

I was looking at that plane a few months ago, i’m also in canada and ended up buying an american reg 1968 C and leaving in N reg.  I paid 30k usd and engine is close to tbo.  But ive been flying it a lot and it runs totally fine, compressions all in the upper 70s.  Im told these engines could easily make it to 3000 hours.  If you need advice on how to buy an N reg plane in canada, pm me.  The market in the us is way better than here. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by mattpg

[Guest]

8 hours ago, mattpg said:

Going to take a look at the plane shortly. I'll be reaching out for a PPI if in the works, would love your help if it's available!

 

Thanks

Matt

 

@Jcmtl I've been watching the markets for a bit now, noticing many in that price range TBO. I'm not opposed to a TBO engine (to be fair, I'd rather price in that risk than not) - How did you find the import costs though, I've heard estimates of $10k, etc.

I think he's flying his under an N number without importing the plane.

$10K is not unusual for importation.

Clarence

[Jcmtl]

Exactly, did not import, flying under the american registration.