M20J annual cost?

[Lance Link]

I pay $2730 for the base annual at Top Gun which seems to be a solid going rate around here.  The average total for 3 annuals has been about $7k each which is what I’ve been told to expect.  A lot breaks and wears out on these old planes.  There are always some repairs between annuals.  I’m happy if nothing big breaks.  I could save money by having an independent mechanic work on the plane but I’ve found most of those guys have gaps in their knowledge about Mooneys.  I finally got a couple of co-owners to help pay the bills.  This is just a bloody expensive avocation.

[OR75]

  On 8/29/2021 at 2:35 AM, Lance Link said:

I pay $2730 for the base annual at Top Gun which seems to be a solid going rate around here.  The average total for 3 annuals has been about $7k each which is what I’ve been told to expect.  A lot breaks and wears out on these old planes.  There are always some repairs between annuals.  I’m happy if nothing big breaks.  I could save money by having an independent mechanic work on the plane but I’ve found most of those guys have gaps in their knowledge about Mooneys.  I finally got a couple of co-owners to help pay the bills.  This is just a bloody expensive avocation.

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What cost $4500 each time ? 

[jaylw314]

  On 8/29/2021 at 12:41 AM, OR75 said:

I am in the Bay Area and don’t pay as much . Not even close . 

25 hours is about right for an inspection ( open and close of panels, compression , gear , etc..) 

of course , an inspection is an inspection so in theory not even and oil change but in practical , best to add the oil change and filter change  … another $100 with the filter ? 
 

teflon hoses are on conditions and do get stiff, harden and built a shape over time.  Any A&P should know that. 
 

rest … no comment without the list of items 

 

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IIRC, an oil and oil filter change are required items on any legal annual, even if you just did them, but they're still usually billed separately...

[Shadrach]

  On 8/29/2021 at 5:36 AM, jaylw314 said:

IIRC, an oil and oil filter change are required items on any legal annual, even if you just did them, but they're still usually billed separately...

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Negative. No requirement. It’s in the Mooney annual inspection guide but it is not required by regulation. Part 43 appendix C is regulatory.

[tigers2007]

My $1500 guy (for a vintage) went to $2500 after establishing his operation. I move a few hours West. Due to time constraints and the bird now out of annual I opted to use the on-field A&P. Very very long story short, my expected $2-3k annual is quoted at $30-40k. Several thousands of dollars later I get my plane back from enemy hands, get a ferry permit and it’s completed by the original guy I should have went back to in the first place. Then the FAA knocks on my door as the swindler A&P/firm allegedly reports me to the FAA for misconduct (which was quickly resolved). 
I’m all-in for using a service like Mike Busch’s consulting firm after going through the hell that one A&P did.
As you’ll read on MS, it’s better to have the annual performed in YOUR hangar as you retain CONTROL of your plane. Otherwise it could be held hostage in a million pieces for months while you negotiate with the hostage-takers.

Just my opinion…

[OR75]

  On 8/29/2021 at 12:14 PM, Shadrach said:

Negative. No requirement. It’s in the Mooney annual inspection guide but it is not required by regulation. Part 43 appendix C is regulatory.

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It indirectly is …. Unless someone shows me how the oil screen or filter can be inspected without draining the oil. Of course, you can always reuse the oil 

[toto]

  On 8/29/2021 at 2:35 AM, Lance Link said:

 The average total for 3 annuals has been about $7k each which is what I’ve been told to expect.

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I don’t think that I would own a J model if the average annual was $7k. Part of the reason I love Mooneys is that they are well-designed and well-engineered, and that translates into simple, maintainable and efficient systems.

If I didn't care about the “simple” or “maintainable,” I’d buy a PA46 and just throw money at it.

[Shadrach]

  On 8/29/2021 at 1:05 PM, OR75 said:

It indirectly is …. Unless someone shows me how the oil screen or filter can be inspected without draining the oil. Of course, you can always reuse the oil 

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Checking the oil screen is a very good idea. Can you show where it is regulatory?
legal, safe, regulatory and prudent are not all the same thing. Indeed they can at times be mutually exclusive, the objective of good maintenance is to ensures they are not. 

[EricJ]

  On 8/29/2021 at 1:05 PM, OR75 said:

It indirectly is …. Unless someone shows me how the oil screen or filter can be inspected without draining the oil. Of course, you can always reuse the oil 

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It is easy to inspect the screen or filter without changing the oil.   Changing the oil is not required or necessary.

[N231BN]

14 CFR 43 Appendix D paragraph (d)(3):
Internal engine - for cylinder compression and for metal particles or foreign matter on screens and sump drain plugs. If there is weak cylinder compression, for improper internal condition and improper internal tolerances.

[OR75]

  On 8/29/2021 at 1:34 PM, Shadrach said:

Checking the oil screen is a very good idea. Can you show where it is regulatory?
legal, safe, regulatory and prudent are not all the same thing. Indeed they can at times be mutually exclusive, the objective of good maintenance is to ensures they are not. 

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14 CFR 43 Appendix D paragraph (d)(3)

I would have thought it would have been a big oversight if it was not there.   

Edited August 29, 2021 by OR75

[toto]

  On 8/28/2021 at 2:11 PM, Jerry 5TJ said:

A new M20J if available would cost what, $850,000?  Probably more.

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I know I’m being pedantic, but a new Acclaim Ultra can be bought for under 800k (I think they were listed at 769 from Mooney). I don’t know how much less a J model would cost, but the NA four cylinder engine alone would be significantly less expensive for the J. 

[Shadrach]

  On 8/29/2021 at 2:50 PM, OR75 said:

14 CFR 43 Appendix D paragraph (d)(3)

I would have thought it would have been a big oversight if it was not there.   

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I read the whole thing before posting and totally missed it. It’s never been an issue for us because oil changes almost always coincide with annual. Thanks @EricJ for clarifying that the screen can be removed with oil in the sump. Good to know. I’ve drained oil at annual on several occasions that still had plenty of life left.

[N201MKTurbo]

  On 8/29/2021 at 1:56 PM, EricJ said:

It is easy to inspect the screen or filter without changing the oil.   Changing the oil is not required or necessary.

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You cannot inspect the suction screen without draining the oil. Well, you can, but you will make a huge mess.

[EricJ]

  On 8/29/2021 at 4:04 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

You cannot inspect the suction screen without draining the oil. Well, you can, but you will make a huge mess.

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That's true, but I think 43 App D (d)3 can be met by checking the pressure screen or filter.    I'm sure that point would be argued by many, though, too.   

[N201MKTurbo]

BTW, I finally got my long range skinny lock wire twisters, I had to wait 6 months for them to show up. I'm scheduled to inspect the suction screen in the next couple of weeks, so I will report on how easy it is (or not) to lock wire it with the new twisters.

I just need to get the Cessna out of the hangar. I was assembling the engine yesterday and dropped a piston pin, it looked OK and felt OK, but when I tried to slide it into the piston, it gouged the pin bore! F$^&*#.... $380 butterfingers! and another week delay. 

[N201MKTurbo]

  On 8/29/2021 at 4:08 PM, EricJ said:

That's true, but I think 43 App D (d)3 can be met by checking the pressure screen or filter.    I'm sure that point would be argued by many, though, too.   

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But the suction screen is on the Mooney inspection checklist. If you want to follow the ICA, it must be inspected.

[cliffy]

This is only an observation after many years on this board and having seen many such postings on first and second annual inspection concerns on the cost (and there have been many over the years 

They ALL fall  into 2 categories-

Either the airplane was bought without proper pre-purchase inspections and it had numerous deficiencies coming in OR

It was dropped off at a shop and they were told "do my annual and call me when its done" giving  the shop and OPEN CHECK BOOK on what they can do.

Again this is directed at all the previous similar postings over the years- if the owner doesn't have mechanical ability to know and understand just what he is looking at or looking for in a prepurchase inspection then it is IMPERITIVE to get a 3rd parry to inspect the airplane before purchase. We have seen this scenario played out many many times over the years here.

Secondly, if an owner has no mechanical ability or understanding about his airplane (I don't care what make) and just drops it off at a shop without specific limits or a 3rd party helper (like Saavy) then its an open check book with no recourse,

[EricJ]

  On 8/29/2021 at 4:30 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

But the suction screen is on the Mooney inspection checklist. If you want to follow the ICA, it must be inspected.

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Most of us don't have those. 

[N201MKTurbo]

  On 8/29/2021 at 4:42 PM, EricJ said:

Most of us don't have those. 

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100_Hour_2018.pdfFetching info...

[jaylw314]

  On 8/29/2021 at 12:14 PM, Shadrach said:

Negative. No requirement. It’s in the Mooney annual inspection guide but it is not required by regulation. Part 43 appendix C is regulatory.

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Oh, thanks!  I thought I recall reading it and being surprised at some specific required maintenance task to qualify as an annual, but I might have just been reading the Mooney guide then...

Edit: Ah, I got around to reading the rest of the posts 

Edited August 29, 2021 by jaylw314

[flyboy0681]

One of the items on the first list was an intermittent Autopilot Sonalert. I've been experiencing that myself in my '83 J, were you eventually able to resolve it?

[Adi]

  On 8/29/2021 at 5:47 PM, flyboy0681 said:

One of the items on the first list was an intermittent Autopilot Sonalert. I've been experiencing that myself in my '83 J, were you eventually able to resolve it?

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Yeah, that was an easy fix - their replacement of the sonalert itself fixed the problem!

[carusoam]

Hmmmmm….

Two expensive annuals in a row….

One question….

What happens next year?

 

1) Learned enough about what annuals are… and have everything up to date except for what wore out this year….

2) Didn’t learn very much at all… the cycle continues.

3) Learned enough to plan for the next decade… bought new hoses in advance, was ready to OH a mag, was looking forward to updating the instrument panel…

4) Knows that in year 10… some of the stuff swapped out earlier… is ready to swap out again….  (This is the less fun part of long term ownership…) 

 

Observation…

After working around the world…

1) hours are hours…. No matter what part of the world you are in…

2) Hours in California… may be more expensive…

3) Pace is not standard… On the east coast…. Things get done more efficiently than in other places…

In a non-aviation industry….  California was the most relaxed pace possible…   everything was more enjoyable, except for the paying part…

 

PP thoughts only, not a time keeper…

Best regards,

-a-

[Jetrn]

Starting 3 year of ownership, Aircraft was maintained by mooney service center in denver for 15 years.  I new there would be some catch up maintenance costs.  Flight home from colorado, plane would not start after landing in pomona california, no indication of mag problems inflight or startup from previous leg.  Overhauled mags, new wires and plugs $3500.  Was on my list to do myself in the near future as mags were near the 500 hour mark.  First annual with Lasar, base inspection $4500, catch up maintenance; new gear donuts, steering horn linkage rebuild, valve cover gaskets, exhaust gaskets, new o2 bottle, brake linings, 1 break caliper, 1 brake rotor, engine filters, elt battery.  My dad and I did the engine work as they had 100% crew turnover, all with no experience with mooneys. Cost $12000ish. Annual august 2021, lone mountain aviation henderson nevada annual combined with engine work from losing #2 cylinder leaving henderson to Tucson in April.  Replaced #2,4 cylinder with new, replaced engine mounts, pitot static test, and adjust engine fuel setup, otherwise a clean annual. total bill including base annual of $2700 out the door $11500.  I am not impressed with the previous mooney center in colorado, there were maintenance items that should have been addressed. I purchased my plane right out of annual at the time. Some of the items I had planned to address to decrease the cost but the plane had other things in mind. I am otherwise very happy with the performance and feel I am turning a corner with catch up maintenance. Next year I may consider using top gun for my annual and us the IA based in rio vista.