Previous overhaul logbook entry

[vfrsouthbound]

So I have come up on my first annual since purchasing my 65 M20C. My A&P is a reputable MSC and has told me that he cannot verify the logbook entry for the previous overhaul or even the TSMOH is correct. I have attached the entry below and wanted to see if anyone might have more insight into this. Seeing as the annuals have been signed off and calculated off this overhaul date and time the past 19 years and nobody else seems to have said anything, should I pull it and use a different shop? I cant seem to find any information on the A&P who did the overhaul or get anything from Lycoming themselves. I do know if I can't find anything my current annual is going to be signed off and timed with whatever the hours would be from the previous overhaul, over 3,000. So if anyone has any ideas or thinks this entry is fine please let me know, because right now I'm thinking of just pulling the plane out and ferrying it somewhere else. 

[JWJR]

So I have come up on my first annual since purchasing my 65 M20C. My A&P is a reputable MSC and has told me that he cannot verify the logbook entry for the previous overhaul or even the TSMOH is correct. I have attached the entry below and wanted to see if anyone might have more insight into this. Seeing as the annuals have been signed off and calculated off this overhaul date and time the past 19 years and nobody else seems to have said anything, should I pull it and use a different shop? I cant seem to find any information on the A&P who did the overhaul or get anything from Lycoming themselves. I do know if I can't find anything my current annual is going to be signed off and timed with whatever the hours would be from the previous overhaul, over 3,000. So if anyone has any ideas or thinks this entry is fine please let me know, because right now I'm thinking of just pulling the plane out and ferrying it somewhere else. 

I got the entire registration background on my plane from the FAA for a small fee. It took a week or so. Probably longer now with covid delays. You can see the name and address of who it was registered to in 2002 and start inquiring. I would dig deeper and work to get to the bottom of it to ensure it was in fact a legit overhaul and not a phony logbook entire.


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[N231BN]

Do you have the yellow tags for all the parts?

Realistically, at this point time SMOH is meaningless since the engine is over 12 years old. Whether it was an actual overhaul or just a repair and reassembly is moot.

There is no requirement for a mechanic to log TSMOH.

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[drapo]

I'm not an expert, but reading through the entry, sounds more like an IRAN (inspect and repair as necessary) than a major overhaul (MOH). So, I guess I understand the resistance of the MSC to treat it as a MOH.

Here is a link to Lycoming SB240W for required work and parts for a MOH: https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/Mandatory Parts Replacement at Overhaul and During Repair or Maintenance.pdf

[DMM]

First I would ask your A&P what specific information is lacking.  The line below the logbook entry signature is cutoff in the photo - Does the A&P's signature include his certificate number? It should.   

[JWJR]

The reply/post I made was assuming the mechanic did not provide his certificate number. If he did the FAA should be able to verify his certificate.Did he do any other work on the plane that is logged with his name and certificate number? It is customary to sign and put certificate number. There was a time that this was your SS number years ago. Perhaps he was reluctant to put his out there per say. Regardless of it being an IRAN or OH the first step is to verify the fellow that made the log entry exists and was certified. All this assuming you want to know for sure the work was ever done and not a fictitious log entry.


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[A64Pilot]

I’m trying unsuccessfully to understand the relevance of a 20 year old logbook entry, to see if the hours are correct is not hard, see if the hours align with other entries in the book.

‘But assuming your a US airplane and operating under part 91, I don’t understand why it matters.

Are they saying based on that logbook entry your airplane is not airworthy?

My guess is that there was another overhaul that somehow was lost. it’s not likely you have over 3,000 hours on that engine, it’s not impossible, but it’s unlikely.

Howevef that logbook entry doesn’t meet the requirement of a maintenance entry as it doesn’t have his rating or number 

Edited August 13, 2021 by A64Pilot

[JWJR]

If you plane is inspected and the only issue is this log entry. I would pay up and fly away with inspection done. You can resolve the OH
Log entry issue later.


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[tony]

I think the issue is only the OEM can zero time the engine.  if anyone else overhauls the engine other than the OEM you just state the hours the overhaul was done but keep counting.  If they sign off your airplane as airworthy, why do you care? 

read this:

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/uncategorized/the-zero-time-myth/

 

[shawnd]

If you don’t have Savvy, perhaps good to give them a call. Perfect question for them. They can help you understand what’s missing and can also chat with the shop. Just a suggestion. Of course, you may have to subscribe but it’s well worth the money.

[GeeBee]

The entry describes it as an overhaul. Without a number, and kind of certificate it is an invalid sign off. The airplane is Part 91 so no foul, but you have diminished value. Need to hunt down the guy if he is still around. Is there any other entries with this guy's information?

 

[47U]

Should be able to track this guy down, either through ownership history or the FAA registry.

A tail number and location would be helpful.

I found several ‘Roy D. Harris’ records here… two with mechanic certificates.

https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/

Apologies for intruding on -a- graphics repair industry.

[vfrsouthbound]

6 hours ago, GeeBee said:

The entry describes it as an overhaul. Without a number, and kind of certificate it is an invalid sign off. The airplane is Part 91 so no foul, but you have diminished value. Need to hunt down the guy if he is still around. Is there any other entries with this guy's information?

 

So everyone who said there’s no number, there is it’s just cutoff. So that’s why I’m wondering why it wouldn’t be legitimate?

[philiplane]

The entry should include the statement "engine overhauled IAW Lycoming direct drive manual ..." 

This entry can be read as a repair only, because although it says removed for overhaul, it doesn't explicitly state that it was overhauled in accordance with the Lycoming direct drive maintenance & overhaul manual.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard vfr.

How many OHs has your plane had?

 

Compare this log entry to the other log entries that indicated a major overhaul was completed…

There is a collection of words the FAA mandates to describe work done…

Logs are not creative writing exercises…

The standard wording has specific meanings…

You can find that mechanic and ask what he meant…. Or find any mechanic and ask what that means…

Be familiar with major overhaul, top overhaul, and R&R…

If it doesn’t specifically use these words… by rule if it isn’t written down, it didn’t happen…

 

Then become familiar what it means to you as a part 91 Flyer….

 

You can always go back to the people that did your pre-purchase inspection and find out why this surprise is coming to light now… the purpose of a PPI is to know what you are buying is represented properly…

What were you told when you were buying this plane?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… or a lawyer…

While I was writing, Phillip gave the news from a mechanic’s point of view…

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

I don't see any reason to do anything other than thank the shop for their fastidiousness, and tell them that is interesting but you are not going to overhaul the motor whatever they decide.  If you tell them you don't care, they won't care, because when the motor was overhauled last doesn't mean anything legally for you (assuming it wasn't overhauled for a prop strike or AD or something).  It doesn't really change anything and you don't even need to correct anything in the logs since they should be recording things by tach or hobbs time.  Time SMOH only matters inasmuch as its resale value for part 91, and you're already way past TBO by years anyway so the motor's value has run out completely already.

Hopefully they're not bringing this up to you as a scare tactic to get you to overhaul the motor.

I'd spend more time digging around if the overhaul was recent, since that might affect the resale value, but this long afterwards it doesn't matter a dang bit.

[MB65E]

Tell the MSC thank you, pay the bill after they sign the annual.  It was 20 years ago. 20 years ago they didn’t have the internet pouring over log entry opinions. It was a crap entry, but I would take it as an overhaul if you asked me. 
Now, arguing over a 20 yo log entry is a bit silly if you ask me. 
Field overhaul entries should list the current SB 240 XYZ revenant at the time. 
-Matt 

IA/ATP

[ArtVandelay]

Tell the MSC thank you, pay the bill after they sign the annual.  It was 20 years ago. 20 years ago they didn’t have the internet pouring over log entry opinions. It was a crap entry, but I would take it as an overhaul if you asked me. 
Now, arguing over a 20 yo log entry is a bit silly if you ask me. 

My 1st annual with MSC they listed (as an airworthiness item) the manufacturer plate was painted over. I complained about it being an airworthy item, they relented but said it was still regulatory and had to be fixed so I told them I would bring some MEK and take care of it, they wanted to charge me an hour of labor. In the end they did it pro bono. Of course my annual was still $6K.

[Guest]

There was a Roy Harris owner of Harris Flying Service in Brownfield Texas.  He owned a Comanche 400.  Did the Mooney do time in western Texas?

Clarence

[N201MKTurbo]

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-9C_CHG_2.pdf
 

Not much in the regs that address this issue. Our engines don’t have life limited parts, so the only value in TSMOH is in determining the value of the plane. 
 

It is the responsibility of the owner and operator to keep these records, not the IA. He is only responsible for inspecting the plane. As the owner, you can make an entry stating the time since overhaul right after he does. Your entry is just as valid as his.

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-9C_CHG_2.pdf
 

Not much in the regs that address this issue. Our engines don’t have life limited parts, so the only value in TSMOH is in determining the value of the plane. 
 

It is the responsibility of the owner and operator to keep these records, not the IA. He is only responsible for inspecting the plane. As the owner, you can make an entry stating the time since overhaul right after he does. Your entry is just as valid as his.

That's totally passive-aggressive, but I love it! 

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, philip_g said:

I bought a rocket and had a well respected shop in texas that's super popular here prebuy it. between when the logs were scanned and shared with me and when we picked the plane and logbooks up at the shop, someone had gone through and crossed out all the TSMOH lines on their entries with a sharpie. We had a similar entry to yours and determined the engine was IRAN'd and not overhauled because it didn't have the entry philiplane mentions above. Did it matter? Not really. Was I pissed? YEP.

That's why the shop never gets my logbooks, they just get access to my digital scanned copies!

[Sixstring2k]

17 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

That's why the shop never gets my logbooks, they just get access to my digital scanned copies!

I have to say that once i own my first airplane this is exactly what I intended to do, many shops are legit and very honest but some are not to say the lease. 

Sorry you are going thru this mess but like someone mention above have them classified it as an IRAN and keep on flying, I still don’t get why it matters to them other than to get you to say overhaul it. 

[EricJ]

+1 that in the end it doesn't matter for airworthiness or your ability to fly the airplane.   As mentioned, there is no requirement to overhaul an engine for Part 91 operation at a specific TSMOH.   The engine gets overhauled "on condition", and as long as it meets static rpm and any other requirements of the manufacturer (which are typically pretty easy, e.g., compression), it can keep flying.

You're not required to keep maintenance logs past 1 year, so if that entry continues to create problems, you can throw it away, start a campfire with it, or whatever.   It is not consequential to the airworthiness of the airplane.

 

[PT20J]

As I understand it, the crux of the matter is not the airworthiness, or the total time on the engine, but rather the total time since overhaul. 

This time has no significance except perhaps in determining value. But for a 19 year-old event, it doesn’t really matter whether it was an overhaul or an IRAN.

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