Vintage Mooney Rah Rah Rant

[scottfromiowa]

"For my money, The Ovation and the Bravo are the only two airplanes made by Mooney that I would own.  Mooneys are tight, uncomfortable, quirky in their handling, have fragile landing gears, some really dime ass components (do-nut suspension), and leaking wings to name a few traits.  Not to mention their fatal accident rate is eye opening (Skylane vs J model in one 10 year period was, I believe 137%).    In short, they are mostly purchased because of price by people who can't afford better."

Counter Point: For my money, The Mooney M20E and the 201 are the only two airplanes made by any company that I would own.  Mooneys are tight (if you are overweight and don't know how to stagger the seats), but very comfortable if you like to sit low and stretch out vs. sitting high-sports car vs. Cadillac), The steering is push tube and rock solid, unless you like super light controls...then buy a Bonanza, NOT a Skylane.  They are VERY predictable if you manage speed by the numbers, If not they have low maintenance Shock biscuits that will Bounce and porpoise...a non-event for anyone that has experience and flys the numbers.  The landing gear is NOT "fragile" and can take a lot of punishment and abuse for a retract.  There are NO gear oleo struts to fail and the Johnson bar eliminates ALL issues with gear mechanisms and related failure.  The wet wings will leak and eventually need a re-seal or bladders, but you don't have to rock them or worry about lack of baffles and sloshing fuel causing an engine failure on departure or watter in the tanks/bladders.  The Mooney has a wonderful Chrom-moly roll cage to protect occupants and the build quality IS superior to Cessna.  The M20 has a good-but NOT excellent safety record according to Aviation Consumer study years 1972-1976.  The Mooney ranked fifth among the 13 most popular single-engine retractables.  It's fatal rate was 2.4 vs. others from 1.0 to 4.2  Total accident rate was 11.3 in a range of 4.6 to 16.8.  The Mooney according to the NTSB (same years) ranked average in engine failures, overshoots and undershoots and good to excellent in stalls and i-flight airframe failures, ground loops and landings.  IN NO CATEGORY listed by the NTSB did the Mooney rank POORLY.  I would buy and fly a skylane ONLY if I was flying into grass strips and was severely overweight.  That's MY opinion.

[rob]

With the note that the J isn't available with the manual gear, I'll second most of what Scott said. I'd add the C and F in the mix also, though.

[Shadrach]

Scott,

Mooneys are tight, uncomfortable, quirky in their handling, have fragile landing gears, some really dime ass components (do-nut suspension), and leaking wings to name a few traits.  Not to mention their fatal accident rate is eye opening (Skylane vs J model in one 10 year period was, I believe 137%).    In short, they are mostly purchased because of price by people who can't afford better."

Wow... Who is the uninformed twit that you're quoting???

[scottfromiowa]

He shall remain nameless...unless you feel like looking...or he wishes to out himself and slather more Cessna love upon us.

[Shadrach]

I cut, pasted and searched both here and Google and it's appears to be gone. It must have been edited. What a prince...a bunch of half truths followed by an off-putting and elitest closing. Seems like the kinda guy I'd like to smack if it weren't for the fact that I have to wipe $hit off my hand... 

[carusoam]

In my dream hangar at my airpark home,  I would own one of each. A,b,c,d.....r,s,TN.  And a mite.

I would also have about 6 or 7 corvettes.

There probably won't be any room for Cessnas or Buicks...is anyone really passionate about Cessnas and Buicks?

Best regards,

-a-

[AndyFromCB]

Scott,

Funny. I kind of agree with John, kind of, but I'm still trying to figure to to kill myself in my Mooney Bravo. If I don't drop the gear, I'm not landing, it's just not going to happen, I will miss my airport by miles. If I don't feel like going to the gym, I'll do stall practice, because in order to stall my Bravo, it seems like I have to pull, pull, pull and pull some more. If I die in a base to final spin, it's a conspiracy, I tell you, because I've yet to see less than 100knots in that turn. My total instruction in the airplane was about 3 hours of the owner showing my how the autopilot works, so none essentially and as long as I come over the fence below 70knots, it just kind of lands itself ;-) If I quit paying attention in IMC, 3 minutes later, the airplane is still right side up, holding alitutude +/- 100 feet unless it's really rough, then it's +/- 150 ;-) 

Plus I'll never have to pay a mechanic another $100 bucks to pump up my Piper's gear...

Mooneys are a complete POS aircraft but then guess what so are all the other ones. Every airplanes I have ever flown was a POS in some area or another, I think JohnG was just being sarcastic because he seems to love his Bravo.

And a Cessna is a perfect airplane, at least a 172/182 is if you're a mechanic. Well thought out, easy to work on, best service in the industry (I mean it, overnight parts for anything, try that Mooney/Beechcraft/Piper) and when it comes to a 172/182, as strong, if not stronger than a Mooney. That strutet wing is amazing. I'm actually looking to trade in my Piper Arrow for a Cessna 206. 

[AndyFromCB]

I wouldn't own an A or a Mite if my life depended on it. Want wood, get a Bellanca. As they say, you can't make an omlete if you don't break any eggs and a few were broken in A and Mites. Actually, I'm thinking Bellanca instead of an Extra 300 because last time I flew one, that's how it felt.

[rob]

Quote: scottfromiowa

He shall remain nameless...unless you feel like looking...or he wishes to out himself and slather more Cessna love upon us.

[orangemtl]

Wow. Quite a bit of vitriol in this string.

Sounds like the original poster/ranter would be more comfortable in Business Class on United. Plenty o' space for an ample frame, no issues with delicate gear, infinitesimal accident rates: in short, everything that would make Grandma a happy, safe, commercial passenger. Enjoy that. Meanwhile, we'll all stick with our uncomfortable, 'dime-ass', rinky-dink Mooneys.

[scottfromiowa]

The "Key" in my counter point is "MY Money"...One is what I Could afford (to purchase and maintain)...The other is what I aspire to own and maintain for my mission...1984 or newer with split/removeable rear seats.  Flying fast-for minimal fuel burn is for me.  No need to go high (O2) or faster (400 mile mission).  To each their own.

[Dale]

Before I got my Mooney M20K 262, N5810Q, I flew an M20E, N5817Q, for over 20 years with my father.  I have to say it was one of the toughest, fastest and strongest little planes I have ever flown and I can say without a doubt it saved my butt more than a few times flying it in hard IMC.  That M20E was really a fantastic plane.  My father and I flew it in and out of many grass strips and my dad would land that plane almost anywhere he had the space.  I flew the Bravo, really nice, fast and roomy, a bit high on the fuel burn, but it didn't meet my mission profile.  My M20K fit my mission profile better, trips up to about 600 miles, some higher altitude airport trips, lower overall fuel burn with not that much lower airspeed than the Bravo and generally only 2 passengers on a trip.  If my M20K is as tough as that little M20E, I will be one really really happy pilot.  The M20E was really a wonderful plane.  Many times mission profile, and finances, will dictate your choice in planes.  Mooney has some exceptional models that fit a lot of flying profiles.

[carusoam]

Michael,

He probably doesn't like the color orange either.....

[rbridges]

I love the newer Mooneys, and I'd kill to have a glass cockpit.  I guess if money were no object, I'd be flying one.  In reality, I make decent money, but I can't justify the cost of owning a newer plane.  The C I own meets my needs and is relatively inexpensive (by aircraft standards) to maintain without a partner.  The 4 cylinder engine, manual gear, hydraulic flaps, etc. are very dependable.  Since it's just me and my wife or friend, I don't need the extra length/load.  Paying an extra 100K for 50 more knots doesn't seem worth it in my situation.

I guess I'm justifying my choice, but in the end, isn't that why we end up with what we have?

 

[lahso]

Quote: rbridges

...The C I own meets my needs and is relatively inexpensive (by aircraft standards) to maintain without a partner.  The 4 cylinder engine, manual gear, hydraulic flaps, etc. are very dependable.  Since it's just me and my wife or friend, I don't need the extra length/load.  Paying an extra 100K for 50 more knots doesn't seem worth it in my situation...

[Ned Gravel]

I am with Scott on this one. 

E model with the J bar.  Only improvement I would have is the addition of a turbo normalizer.  And that may come anyway. 

Tough little airplane.  Put it down almost anywhere in less than 800'.  No demonstrated crosswind component mentioned in the owner's manual, but later POHs put that around 11 mph - I have put it down in a 20 knot crosswind component and that is very dooable.

Very stable in all kinds of soup.  My kind of cross country machine.

Clarence has been helping me improve my E one piece at a time since I bought it six years ago.  Each little improvement will add to its already capable performance envelope.

Now, if I could just be a better pilot

[Shadrach]

 Mea Culpa... Gentlemen, My earlier "hot headed" remarks were over the top and beyond the scope of what ought to be posted on this forum.  While I might have felt that way at the time (and still do), it was pretty chidish to post it here.

[johnggreen]

Gentlemen,

And I do mean, "Gentlemen".

Wow... Who is the uninformed twit that you're quoting???

 

It is I, "the uninformed twit".  The one that learned to fly at eleven.  Has personally owned and maintained 32 airplanes over the last 40 years; who has managed to not bend any metal in over 6,000 hours of flying, who is proudly a CFII, who has never charged one dollar for instruction time to any pilot who needed his flying skills sharpened or needed to learn the basics of spin training.

That's me!

I have truly enjoyed watching this thread "develop" as I suspected it would after my comments.  Yes, Virginia, I was baiting some of you.  Frankly, you need it.  I didn't say a word that wasn't true, but the next day, I did regret the comment about folks flying Mooneys because they couldn't afford better.  I agree with Rob, that was "elitist".  For that one, single comment, you have my apology.  For the rest of my comments and your responses, thank you.  Frankly, you did nothing but make my points valid and raise three more which richly deserve comment.

First of all, I am sorry that the poster who quoted me, did not paste the entire quote.  It would have included my personal signature that I try to remember to put on all posts; Jgreen.  My name and exact location are on my info and I have included my cell number on several posts.

I have a real problem with blogs like this that they allow anonymous and semi-anonymous postings.  In fact, I suspect some of those that appear to be identified are bogus to protect the identity and yellow streak of the member.  Like the ubiquitous "comment" sites that are available from all sorts of news outlets, they are worthless and offensive.  Allowing a cowardly mole to take snipes at identified people without fear of having to personally account for his/her comments is an insult to what dignity modern life has left in the human experience.

That post that most of you found so offensive came as a result of a member "somewhere in Florida" and others equally as well camouflaged, taking hidden pot shots at a friend of mine, Coy Jacob, of Mooney Mart.  I was pissed so I just let off a little steam, BUT BY GOD I DID IT WITH MY SIGNATURE.

So, my point is, identify yourself, at which point you have my full permission to vent any feeling or opinion you want.  Otherwise you are a "cowardly twit" to borrow a very descriptive moniker from my friend Ross.  Any yes, should we meet in person, you may take you anger out physically if you so choose.  I haven't run yet and don't suspect that I will the next time.  Oh, I forgot, you don't want to get any shit on your hands do you?

Secondly, there are obviously some very experienced and knowledgeable pilots and owners on this forum.  There are also some extremely insecure wannabees who won't ever be.  I don't mind reading their dumb ass comments until it comes to aspects of pilotage that impact on safety.  Usually, the knowledgeable win out in the give and take, but sometimes one of us "uninformed twits" does have to speak out rather plainly in the interest of truth.  I love reading their brilliant uninformed essays and then going to the FAA site and finding out that the guy usually doesn't even have a commercial or instrument ticket.

Finally, while I'm venting my uninformed opinions, I don't think there is anything more shallow than brand loyalty in aviation.  You want brand loyalty, go to Beechcraft.  Those guys, might actually have something to crow about.

The fact is, there is no ideal or perfect airplane.  Airplanes should be chosen based on their capabilities and the balance of their assets and deficits in the profile of the owners intended use.  I've owned Beech, Cessna, Piper, Helio, North American ------- I won't bore you.  I own the Bravo because it fills my current mission better than any other airplane at similar cost and expense.  When that mission changes, I will change airplanes.  In the interim, I will not let my fragile ego create a brand loyalty that causes me to overlook the deficits of the aircraft.

My ego, that vision I have of who I am, is thankfully not so fragile that I have to be a groupie at anything.  Not political persuasion, auto ownership, aircraft ownership, college or pro football team or anything else.

You want elitism, you want to see my ego?  I have three children and one that just showed up at the dinner table one night (my youngest sons best friend).  Between them they have 4 BA's, 2 graduate degrees, 4 law degrees, an MBA, and a graduate LLM in tax law.  The best friend I sent to Wake Forrest Law and he now practices in Asheville.

That's my ego; not a damn airplane.

So, thanks again.  Threads like this do a lot for my fragile ego, or as Mac Davis so eloquently sang, "Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble".

Jgreen

[Seth]

Quote: carusoam

In my dream hangar at my airpark home,  I would own one of each. A,b,c,d.....r,s,TN.  And a mite.

I would also have about 6 or 7 corvettes.

There probably won't be any room for Cessnas or Buicks...is anyone really passionate about Cessnas and Buicks?

Best regards,

-a-

[John Pleisse]

Quote: johnggreen

Gentlemen,

............a friend of mine, Coy Jacob, of Mooney Mart....................  

[rbridges]

I don't know in what context your statement was made, and honestly, it doesn't bother me.  Overall this is a great forum.  Every now and then something will be said, but you just have to roll with it.

[rob]

Quote: johnggreen

Gentlemen,

And I do mean, "Gentlemen".

Wow... Who is the uninformed twit that you're quoting???

 

It is I, "the uninformed twit".  The one that learned to fly at eleven.  Has personally owned and maintained 32 airplanes over the last 40 years; who has managed to not bend any metal in over 6,000 hours of flying, who is proudly a CFII, who has never charged one dollar for instruction time to any pilot who needed his flying skills sharpened or needed to learn the basics of spin training.

That's me!

I have truly enjoyed watching this thread "develop" as I suspected it would after my comments.  Yes, Virginia, I was baiting some of you.  Frankly, you need it.

[johnggreen]

N4352H,

And maybe, after you post your name, you could contact Mr. Jacobs personally rather than hide behind your anonymity.  Or perhaps start a thread and invite him to join in the discussion.  You may well have a valid complaint.  I guess we won't ever know.

And here I go.

John Green

Grenada, MS

[John Pleisse]

Quote: johnggreen

N4352H,

And maybe, after you post your name, you could contact Mr. Jacobs personally rather than hide behind your anonymity.  Or perhaps start a thread and invite him to join in the discussion.  You may well have a valid complaint.  I guess we won't ever know.

And here I go.

John Green

Grenada, MS

[Hank]

Hey, wow, a thread to ignore.

This is still a better place than the red board. But then again, I fly a vintage short-body Mooney so I'm not a real pilot, and without a commercial cert, my opinions are worthless, too.

My little jaunts around the country, though, are accomplished much quicker while using less fuel than most other certified aircraft that my admittedly-limited experience is aware of. I can even haul around all of my wife's luggage, and she usually brings everything including the kitchen sink. Maybe there is something to a Mooney after all.

Now, it's back to ignoring the occasional vitriol that pops up here. I try to not pay attention to folks who act up in order to get attention. Doing so on the internet is just really sad . . . . .