New M20F owner question should I add an engine monitor or just a fuel totalizer

[FreightGuy]

New Mooney owner here.  Love the aircraft.  F model.  Standard fuel gauges that bounce around in flight and also wing fuel level gauges next to fuel caps.  Have been considering a engine monitor even before buying it.  On my ferry flight home from TX to FL averaged 9 gph with no monitor.  My question for the fuel injected Mooney drivers out there, "Are the fuel savings justifiable for a $7500+ plus install?"  Or just a fuel flow gauge like an FS450 has worked for most of you?  Would like to hear from those with and without a engine monitor and those that went from none to a monitor for real time comparison.  Thank you for any help on the subject.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard FG!
 

Both.

One is easily connected to the other….

Both have tremendous value to the knowledgable pilot…

I went a decade without either… having instrumentation is better than not…

Had one engine issue where the engine monitor would have paid for itself… a stuck valve, that left a dent in the piston crown…

Have any other budget we can help you spend?

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, FreightGuy said:

New Mooney owner here.  Love the aircraft.  F model.  Standard fuel gauges that bounce around in flight and also wing fuel level gauges next to fuel caps.  Have been considering a engine monitor even before buying it.  On my ferry flight home from TX to FL averaged 9 gph with no monitor.  My question for the fuel injected Mooney drivers out there, "Are the fuel savings justifiable for a $7500+ plus install?"  Or just a fuel flow gauge like an FS450 has worked for most of you?  Would like to hear from those with and without a engine monitor and those that went from none to a monitor for real time comparison.  Thank you for any help on the subject.

Welcome!  I also have an F.  You definitely won’t save $7500 of fuel, but you might save your $45,000 engine!  There are lots of options, but yeah, I’d definitely do the engine monitor.  Mine has an edm930.  An edm900, mvp50, ei cgr/cgp, and even a gi275 or g3x are all good options.

[carusoam]

Rags is on detail patrol tonight!

Supplying ALL the details…   

Best regards,

-a-

 

[MikeOH]

My 70F had both when I bought it: G3 Insight Engine Monitor and an EI FP-5L fuel totalizer.
I'd be hard pressed to pick one over the other.  IMHO, you'll never directly get your money back.  But, knowing the operating condition of your engine at all times is worth it; I'd buy both.

[tony]

My MVP-50P shows me things I would never know about my engine without it.  You really want to see all the EGTs and all the CHTs, along with fuel flow.  Fuel pressure will explain why its hard to start when the engine is hot and when to turn on the boast pump when your on the ground on those hot summer days.  Once I had a loss of power in flight, I down loaded the data and quickly diagnosed it wasn't an engine problem.  Turned out to be a broken bracket on my prop control cable.  

Get the best engine monitor you can justify. You might need it someday.

 

[Bartman]

I still have the trusty EDM 700 with the FS450 that have worked flawlessly for 10 years. I’ve thought about upgrading, but I see no reason for it as it gives good and useful information. Now if I were to spring for a panel upgrade the I’d definitely go that direction with the EDM 900 and remove factory guages.  
 

You don’t have to spend 7,500 to get reliable information. 

[Vance Harral]

If $7500 for an engine monitor causes you to balk, suggest you install a much less expensive engine monitor, and consider working with an A&P to do some/all of the work yourself to save on labor cost.

I am not claiming a JPI EDM 700 or EI UBG-16 is just as good as an EDM950/MVP-50.  But those choices are literally thousands of dollars cheaper, still well supported, and still provide all the basic functionality you need for good engine management.  Very reasonable in any airplane, especially one in which the owner is reasonably choosing not to turn it into a $100K glass panel beast.

[KLRDMD]

48 minutes ago, Bartman said:

Now if I were to spring for a panel upgrade the I’d definitely go that direction with the EDM 900 and remove factory guages.  

It is a prettier and cleaner installation to have a primary engine monitor, of course but my issue with engine monitors that allow them to be primary is the alarms and limits can only be set at what the original instruments are set at. As an example, for CHT it must be set at 460º if that's what the original gauge was. I want my CHT to alarm at 380º so I prefer non-primary gauges that allow you to set limits and alarms anywhere you like.

[Brian E.]

Ditto to all the above.  I had all the same issues including fuels gauges that swung like windshield wipers and I installed a EDM-900 and removed all of my legacy gauges.  I couldn't be happier and it has truly changed the way I fly.  Good luck, there are truly no bad choices for instrumentation but I do encourage you to get one that can be used as a primary.

[ArtVandelay]

It is a prettier and cleaner installation to have a primary engine monitor, of course but my issue with engine monitors that allow them to be primary is the alarms and limits can only be set at what the original instruments are set at. As an example, for CHT it must be set at 460º if that's what the original gauge was. I want my CHT to alarm at 380º so I prefer non-primary gauges that allow you to set limits and alarms anywhere you like.

You can set lower CHT limits with JPI 900, mine is set to 390°.

[A64Pilot]

The other side of the argument is the aircraft has been flying for what 50 years or so without one, so obviously it’s not required, and you don’t need one to run LOP either, you just need one to run LOP at higher power, but you can easily run LOP at less than 65% or maybe even 75% power, as I’m risk adverse, I use 65%, but if your wanting to conserve fuel your not at high power anyway.

How many flight hours is 7.5K?

It depends on your financial situation, if you can take 7.5K out of petty cash and not miss it, go ahead, they are nice to have, but if 7.5 K is a chunk of change for you, maybe it’s best spent elsewhere, like a engine reserve fund or maybe getting your IFR ticket if you don’t have it etc. or saving up for that first Annual that may be more expensive than you might expect.

Of course many will say that you have to have one.

[A64Pilot]

Just now, ArtVandelay said:

You can set lower CHT limits with JPI 900, mine is set to 390°.

You may can, but he is correct, if it’s a primary instrument, then it’s limits have to be programmed IAW the POH and you not allowed to change them.

Thet is why for example if you order an MVP-50 that you fill out a form that has all of the limits and it’s sent pre-programmed for a Certified aircraft.

‘For an experimental I believe they may send you one with a level 1 password that allows you to modify all of the programming.

One thing that gets annoying on these types of instruments is there is no buffer, for example my takeoff RPM is 2700, the max allowable RPM is 2700, 2701 is an over speed and is required to be enunciated as such, so you have two choices, ignore the over speed warnings that will occur often, or turn your Prop RPM down and lose some HP so that the prop never exceeds 2700.

I believe more modern aircraft usually have a yellow band prior to the redline, but back in the day when just dial instruments were all there was, it was common for 1 RPM to be the difference between continues operation, and an exceedence, because it was up to the pilot to interpret what he was seeing.

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

It is a prettier and cleaner installation to have a primary engine monitor, of course but my issue with engine monitors that allow them to be primary is the alarms and limits can only be set at what the original instruments are set at. As an example, for CHT it must be set at 460º if that's what the original gauge was. I want my CHT to alarm at 380º so I prefer non-primary gauges that allow you to set limits and alarms anywhere you like.

As art v said, jpi has “pre alarms”, so my chts alarm at 380 just to make sure I know where I’m at.

[DCarlton]

Agree with those that said you don't have to spend $7500.   I love my EDM730 and it wasn't nearly that expensive.  I'm not happy with my bouncing gages either but I've flown it that way for 15 years.  Just know what you have in the tanks before you take off.  I plan for 10 GPH and plenty of reserve and don't overthink it.  With that said, an $8K system that includes fuel gages would be really nice.  

[jaylw314]

I'm pretty sure the non-primary JPI 730 does not have the option for fuel tank sensors (just fuel flow and calculated volume).  That's only available on the primary 900 or 930, AFAIK.    I don't know if that's true for the EI monitors.

Since you're interested in replacing the fuel tank gauges, that's worth taking into consideration

Edited July 10, 2021 by jaylw314

[jaylw314]

Just now, DCarlton said:

Agree with those that said you don't have to spend $7500.   I love my EDM730 and it wasn't nearly that expensive.  I'm not happy with my bouncing gages either but I've flown it that way for 15 years.  Just know what you have in the tanks before you take off.  I plan for 10 GPH and plenty of reserve and don't overthink it.  With that said, an $8K system that includes fuel gages would be really nice.  

For people who had a EDM 700 installation (and that seemed to be a LOT of people), upgrading to a 730 for a quarter of the cost seems a no-brainer instead of ripping everything out to do a 900.

[Tom 4536]

39 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

You may can, but he is correct, if it’s a primary instrument, then it’s limits have to be programmed IAW the POH and you not allowed to change them.

Thet is why for example if you order an MVP-50 that you fill out a form that has all of the limits and it’s sent pre-programmed for a Certified aircraft.

‘For an experimental I believe they may send you one with a level 1 password that allows you to modify all of the programming.

One thing that gets annoying on these types of instruments is there is no buffer, for example my takeoff RPM is 2700, the max allowable RPM is 2700, 2701 is an over speed and is required to be enunciated as such, so you have two choices, ignore the over speed warnings that will occur often, or turn your Prop RPM down and lose some HP so that the prop never exceeds 2700.

I believe more modern aircraft usually have a yellow band prior to the redline, but back in the day when just dial instruments were all there was, it was common for 1 RPM to be the difference between continues operation, and an exceedence, because it was up to the pilot to interpret what he was seeing.

 

Sorry, but I actually have a new Primary JPI 900, and it has two alarm set points. One is a redline set by JPI, the other is a cautionary alarm set by the installer.

[Ragsf15e]

The cgr / cgp or gi275 eis systems are compelling if you have a standard instrument hole that you can use because there’s little to no panel cutting.  Much of the wiring is done in the engine compartment and little behind the panel.

Yes, I know they’re small, but they’ve got all the info and keep the panel mod to a minimum.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Ragsf15e

[RobertGary1]

Mine has not only saved engines when I’ve had plugged injectors it may have saved my life. My first indication of problems was my EDM flashing that oil temps were rising. Got me pointed to an airport several minutes before the big silence. 

[KLRDMD]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

You can set lower CHT limits with JPI 900, mine is set to 390°.

Good to know, that must have changed. Thanks for the update.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

You can set lower CHT limits with JPI 900, mine is set to 390°.

You may have as has been said a lower get your attention or whatever you want to call it enunciation, but your limit should be the same as the POH

[Yetti]

I don't think spending that kind of money on just an engine monitor is justified anymore.   Save up and go full panel with Dynon Skyview or that other brand.

[Ragsf15e]

2 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I don't think spending that kind of money on just an engine monitor is justified anymore.   Save up and go full panel with Dynon Skyview or that other brand.

Yeah depending on how big you want to go.  10”g3x with eis plus the g5 b/u has gotta run 20k plus.  Maybe 30?  Dynon or a few GI275s might be a bit less.

[lamont337]

Just need new probes, which I would probably do even if they were included:

 

$600
 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/EI-UBG-16-Aircraft-Engine-Monitor-/284355391026?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0

Edited July 10, 2021 by lamont337
Added price