Oxygen cylinders and requirements

[warrenehc]

Hello all,

I have looked at the oxygen regulations and am I have question.

Can someone tell me the difference between buying the $1,000 plus aviation oxygen system or going to a EMS store and buying the cylinder regular and nasal cannulas. All are exact and within policy for a fraction of the price? 
 

I know I would have to purchase av oxygen on the field and not medical oxygen.

 

Am I missing something?

[201Mooniac]

No need to buy aviation O2, medical O2 is just fine, they are produced by the same process.  I use a medical bottle and swap the tanks with the medical supply house for $7.  The only problem is some medical supply places require a prescription for O2 but most Dr's I've asked seem okay with writing it.

[A64Pilot]

Go to the Air Gas place or whoever fills bottles where you live, ask them and you will find that the source of ALL their oxygen is the big Dewer full of O2 outback.

Some will say that Medical and Aviation has different levels of moisture etc, but no compressed O2 has any moisture, it’ seems the process of liquefying it removes it.

‘Now I’ve heard that medical cylinders are sterilized, and that may be true, but the place that fills them doesn’t sterilize them. There is a lot of misinformation about O2, I guess to justify a jacked up price?

Depending on where you are, you will have to have a prescription, lords knows why, can you abuse O2? Also if there is a technical diving shop near where you are, you can get fills real cheap compared to the airport. We use O2 to blend tri-mix and for deco gas, dive shops don’t ask for prescriptions.

‘What’s different between medical bottles and I believe all others is the valve for some reason, we and I believe welding bottles etc use CGA valves. of course CGA just stands for Compressed Gas Association I think, I don’t know what the medical valves are called

‘I have a hose that lets me fill my own off a welding bottle, as you can see in the picture, both ends are the same.

‘I had to do a bunch of testing up to FL250 of a special crop duster and up that high you have to wear a mask, and a mask uses a lot of O2 compared to a cannula

 

On edit, buy bottles from Sky Ox or other O2 kit suppliers, or just off the web, not the airport, after a quick look I think we use a CGA 540 valve, medical is called a post valve or maybe a CGA 870?

 

Last edit I promise. Don’t let any kind of oil or grease near anything you use for your O2, a friend at a dive shop after eating lunch filled a deco bottle and when unscrewing the fitting, he must have had some chicken grease on his fingers because it burned his fingers, high pressure O2 will make anything burn it seems

Edited March 19, 2021 by A64Pilot

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

On edit, buy bottles from Sky Ox or other O2 kit suppliers, or just off the web, not the airport, after a quick look I think we use a CGA 540 valve, medical is called a post valve or maybe a CGA 870?

Yes, medical regulators use a CGA 870 connector, commonly called a post-valve (because it's a valve on a post, I guess?).  Most supply shops will require a prescription, and they won't refill them--they simply take yours and give you a new bottle of the same size.

If you use a medical bottle with a CGA 540 valve and regulator, you should not need a prescription, although you will confuse the heck out of some people.  A couple times at my local welding shop, somebody has insisted I need a prescription, then somebody comes up and points out the CGA 540 valve and says I'm good to get it refilled.  If you want to avoid questions, tell them it's for a fish tank or brewing or something.

Do note that most non-aviation flow regulators are labelled for liters per minute flow, but they are actually pressure regulators.  That means at altitude, those numbers can be completely inaccurate.  You will need a separate flow meter and pulse ox to verify you're getting enough oxygen.

[RobertGary1]

In theory you can use medical o2 but I’ve never figure out how. Medical oxygen isn’t filled the cylinders are exchanged. 

[carusoam]

Warren,

There is a search function here that reveals plenty of answers...

From tanks for sale... to hardware that works for aviation...

to discussion on refilling the bottle...

What errors people have found when buying canulas...

To safety issues related O2 leaks, or tipping a big cylinder over...

An if you wear lipstick while flying, try to avoid using O2 at the same time...

How to get O2 from your local supplier...

How to set up a cascade system in your hangar...

To what devices are good for measuring your O2 level...

How about leak detection... there is a thread for that too...

Set it up...

Practice with it...

measure your O2 levels...

Become familiar with with having low O2... everyone has personal signs that help recognize O2 system failures...

Its important... we have lost a Mooney pilot as his O2 system failed in the climb... Pamding in the ocean East of Atlantic City... on the way to a safety seminar...

 

Ask more questions...

Don’t be afraid...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[201Mooniac]

20 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

In theory you can use medical o2 but I’ve never figure out how. Medical oxygen isn’t filled the cylinders are exchanged. 

I have a portable cylinder that I exchange at the medical equipment supply company.  It costs me $7 for an exchange.  I also carry an adapter valve with me so the bottle can be filled at an airport with the standard connector when I'm cross country.

[A64Pilot]

I would not use a regular cannula and a medical regulator.

‘The Aviation cannula has a little chamber that fill when your not breathing in and when you do you suck that O2 out, decreasing O2 use and increasing O2 saturation

An entire system, cannulas, regulator, bottle and a mask is between $300 ish and $500 ish

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

I would not use a regular cannula and a medical regulator.

‘The Aviation cannula has a little chamber that fill when your not breathing in and when you do you suck that O2 out, decreasing O2 use and increasing O2 saturation

An entire system, cannulas, regulator, bottle and a mask is between $300 ish and $500 ish

It’s more about the cost of the full. I’m paying $125 to refill my cylinder at the fbo. 

[N201MKTurbo]

I fill mine at home for about $5

[RobertGary1]

33 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I fill mine at home for about $5

Next time I’ll come to your house 

[RJBrown]

Picture #1 shows a Skyox bottle and a medical E type bottle.

Picture #2 shows a Skyox regulator and an adaptor to use it on a E medical bottle.

Skyox bottle belongs to me, I am responsible to keep in “in date” for hydrostatic test.

it can be filled by a FBO but at the same cost as the much larger on board bottle.

I would take it to General Air Services to fill. I would leave it and get it back in two days.

The E type is exchange only, also at GAS. Also can be exchanged with a friend with an medical oxygen prescription, my friend always got more bottles than he used and exchange was at his insurance cost.

I made the adapter out of standard fittings. The silver part attaches to a medical E bottle, the brass part has a gauge to check bottle pressure.

These were used most in my Rocket. For cost and convenience reasons the E bottles were used most. I kept 3. 
Picture #3 is a small welding bottle. The Skyox regulator will attach to it, used this way it had no pressure gauge.

I used the onboard bottle mostly for me only. Passengers were on the Skyox system. Solo the welding bottle was set up ready to use on the passenger seat as an emergency back up. I never did need it but always had it ready for trips into the flight levels. 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, RJBrown said:

Picture #1 shows a Skyox bottle and a medical E type bottle.

Picture #2 shows a Skyox regulator and an adaptor to use it on a E medical bottle.

Skyox bottle belongs to me, I am responsible to keep in “in date” for hydrostatic test.

it can be filled by a FBO but at the same cost as the much larger on board bottle.

I would take it to General Air Services to fill. I would leave it and get it back in two days.

The E type is exchange only, also at GAS. Also can be exchanged with a friend with an medical oxygen prescription, my friend always got more bottles than he used and exchange was at his insurance cost.

I made the adapter out of standard fittings. The silver part attaches to a medical E bottle, the brass part has a gauge to check bottle pressure.

These were used most in my Rocket. For cost and convenience reasons the E bottles were used most. I kept 3. 
Picture #3 is a small welding bottle. The Skyox regulator will attach to it, used this way it had no pressure gauge.

I used the onboard bottle mostly for me only. Passengers were on the Skyox system. Solo the welding bottle was set up ready to use on the passenger seat as an emergency back up. I never did need it but always had it ready for trips into the flight levels. 

 

Nice idea on the adapter!

I prefer the D size bottle.  You still have enough for about 10 hours for one person, and it's significantly more portable.  I have two for my wife and I, and we secure them to the chair rails on the floor behind the seats, and they're short enough we can get the two across (I use the one behind her chair and she uses the one behind mine).

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I would not use a regular cannula and a medical regulator.

‘The Aviation cannula has a little chamber that fill when your not breathing in and when you do you suck that O2 out, decreasing O2 use and increasing O2 saturation

An entire system, cannulas, regulator, bottle and a mask is between $300 ish and $500 ish

The medical cannulas waste about 30-50% of the oxygen during exhalation.  The rebreather cannulas ensure you use 100% of the oxygen flow up to a certain flow rate, usually about 1 liter per minute (above that, they also waste 30-50% of the oxygen).

The non-rebreather cannulas and mask have the advantage that at high flow rates (more than 2 lpm), you can get up to 100% oxygen. Rebreather masks with large reservoirs might max out at less than 100%.  For hospitals, with a practically infinite supply of oxygen and ill patients with respiratory diseases, the non-rebreathers are a no-brainer.  They waste oxygen, but they're not really harmful otherwise, so they can certainly be used in a pinch, you'll just use up your oxygen about 2-3 times faster.