"I'm a student pilot. Can I get insured on a Mooney?"

[Parker_Woodruff]

"I'm a student pilot.  Can I get insurance which will cover me receiving instruction in a Mooney?"

This is a very frequent question these days, so I am providing some general guidance here.

• Can a student pilot get insurance on a Mooney?
  • Yes.  However, as of this writing, there are only three companies that will consistently offer insurance for student pilots flying a Mooney, provided certain underwriting criteria is met.  Those three companies each have one of the following policy limitations which carries some risk for the aircraft owner:
    • Two of the carriers limit hail damage not affecting the airworthiness of the aircraft to 10% of the agreed value of the aircraft, less any deductible.  On a Mooney, there is no established maximum depth of a hail dent to render the aircraft unairworthy.  You may very well end up with a check for 10% of the aircraft's value and still own an aluminum golf ball.
    • One of the carriers will not cover bodily injury to flight instructors or any third party crewmember (delivery pilot, safety pilot, etc.) in the event of an accident.  You would be left to defend yourself against any demands or suits brought about by the injured crewmember.

Rest assured, we do not place any clients with these carriers without first disclosing the policy limitations outlined above.  We also do not offer terms from these carriers when other reasonable options are available.  In fact, we put these limitations in plain writing and request acknowledgement as it protects Airspeed against Errors and Omissions claims.

All aircraft insurance carriers have differences in their coverage.  While most of the time it makes sense to go with the lowest price, that's not always the case when there are specific insurance needs (non-owned aircraft coverage requirements, spare parts coverage, etc.).

Parker

Parker@airspeedinsurance.com

214-295-5055

[Mcstealth]

Is the 10% hail coverage also a limitation on the 172? Is that limitation Mooney specific?

Same questions about bodily injury?

Edited February 24, 2021 by Mcstealth

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

Is the 10% hail coverage also a limitation on the 172? Is that limitation Mooney specific?

Same questions about bodily injury?

It's a limitation for those carriers.

Almost any other insurance company (with better policy terms) will insure a C172 with a student.

[201er]

What are we looking at? About 8 grand in a typical J?

Any of you instructors take a student from zero (or solo) to private pilot in a Mooney? How many more hours does it take in a Mooney than in more typical trainers?

[RobertGary1]

6 minutes ago, 201er said:

What are we looking at? About 8 grand in a typical J?

Any of you instructors take a student from zero (or solo) to private pilot in a Mooney? How many more hours does it take in a Mooney than in more typical trainers?

Ive done a couple. It takes a bit more time in training but in the end if you were to start in a 172 and transition over it’s probably a wash. 
there are so many costs in switching planes (prepurchase inspections, travel, taxes, etc) I don’t think it’s worth buying temporary planes. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

What are we looking at? About 8 grand in a typical J?

$8-$10K for a $100,000 M20J, if all the necessary boxes are checked and we can get a quote...

[Mcstealth]

3 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

It's a limitation for those carriers.

Almost any other insurance company (with better policy terms) will insure a C172 with a student.

Not quit answering the question. Those same carriers do not have the same limitations on a 172? Only because it is a Mooney,  do those limitations apply? Bonanza? Cirrus? They do not get the limitations because they are not Mooney?

[mike_elliott]

5 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

One of the carriers will not cover bodily injury to flight instructors or any third party crewmember (delivery pilot, safety pilot, etc.) in the event of an accident.  You would be left to defend yourself against any demands or suits brought about by the injured crewmember.

Thats just weird. If the FI or crewmember were added as named insured additional pilot, there would be no suit to speak of as everyone's lawyer would be the same and sitting on the same side of the table. Mooney Pros, Inc. requires to be added as named additional insured with a waiver of subrogation (this is what they really dont want to give up, the ability to hedge their bet of paying out a claim with the instructors assets) with each of our clients in addition to our instructors and Mooney Pros carrying a separate non owned consumerate with their risk tolerances. I suppose they are trolling to write more non owned....

[201er]

2 hours ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

$8-$10K for a $100,000 M20J, if all the necessary boxes are checked and we can get a quote...

So does that mean that the student/novice pilot is about 5-7 times more likely to break the airplane than a more experienced pilot (based on the X more premium)? Is it the same % ratio premium compared to a novice vs experienced 172 pilot? In other words is it that much more because it's a novice or because it's a Mooney?

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, 201er said:

So does that mean that the student/novice pilot is about 5-7 times more likely to break the airplane than a more experienced pilot (based on the X more premium)? Is it the same % ratio premium compared to a novice vs experienced 172 pilot? In other words is it that much more because it's a novice or because it's a Mooney?

It's probably more because:

1. It's a retract (gear up risk)
2. It's slick (loss of control risk)
3. It's fast (able to cross weather systems and get in trouble)
4. It's a traveling machine (goes to far, unfamiliar places with different weather)

[Parker_Woodruff]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

Thats just weird. If the FI or crewmember were added as named insured additional pilot, there would be no suit to speak of as everyone's lawyer would be the same and sitting on the same side of the table. 

If the CFI or his widow is suing the aircraft owner for negligence, there would be no coverage for bodily injury to that crewmember by the terms of the policy.

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

Not quit answering the question. Those same carriers do not have the same limitations on a 172? Only because it is a Mooney,  do those limitations apply? Bonanza? Cirrus? They do not get the limitations because they are not Mooney?

It's a policy limitation.  It's not make and model limitation.  I can get companies without this policy limitation to quote a C172 or PA28-181 for a student pilot.  I normally can't get the companies with top tier policy forms to quote students in an M20J or BE36.

[Parker_Woodruff]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

So does that mean that the student/novice pilot is about 5-7 times more likely to break the airplane than a more experienced pilot (based on the X more premium)? Is it the same % ratio premium compared to a novice vs experienced 172 pilot? In other words is it that much more because it's a novice or because it's a Mooney?

@Hank is correct...but I've expanded.

There is a greater likelihood of a Mooney involved in a student pilot claim, but not 5-7 times.  The price difference can be attributed to a smaller market who will support that business and also the higher repair costs of a Mooney runway incident than a C172 runway incident...remember a lot more damage is done to a Mooney that has a gear up than a Cessna that has a prop strike.   IClaim costs on the Mooney are more.

• Cessna 172
  • Impossible to gear up.
  • Fixed pitch prop is much less expensive, even brand new
• Mooney M20J
  • Can gear up
    • Gear ups are not just a prop strike.  Skins get replaced, constant speed props are more expensive to replace than a fixed pitch prop for a C172.
    • What would otherwise be a perfect landing in a C172 is a $40,000 gear up event in a Mooney.  Airmanship could be fine in both cases...(minus forgetting the gear)
  • An accident will likely happen at a higher speed which = more damage and increased claim costs.  Compare Vso in C172 and M20J.

[Parker_Woodruff]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

 I suppose they are trolling to write more non owned....

An additional insured (or their estate) can sue a named insured and the policy would respond.

A third party can sue a named insured and additional insured.  The coverage would respond to the Additional Insured if it was due to the operations of the Named Insured.

Mooney pros is not being added as a Named Insured.  Mooney Pros is being added as Additional Insured.

The carrier that has this restriction is not in the business of non-owned policies.