Interested in purchasing a J model, have some questions

[mooneyflyfast]

12 hours ago, carusoam said:

Does 22 years qualify for forever-plane status?
 

Just wondering...   

-a-

Probably, but like most airplane ownere I know, I still look at the ads.  Ovation? Bravo?

[Missile=Awesome]

13 hours ago, PT20J said:

Maybe this will help

201hist.xls 53.5 kB · 47 downloads

So, based on this our Mooney M20J with Missile conversion is a 1981 NOT a 1980 as listed with FAA Registration...hmmmmm.

[mooneyflyfast]

1 hour ago, Ryan ORL said:

When browsing listings I have seen a wide variety of things listed as STCs including:

- GAMI Injectors

- Something with the Air Filter?

- Fuel Tank Sealing / Other Mods

- Air / Oil Separator

I'm sure most of these things are minor, but for instance, the fuel tank stuff I have seen on several listings.

Lycomings have a better balanced fuel system than Continentals.  Most Js will run fine lean of peak with stock injectors so GAMIS are not needed (both engines I have had in mine would)  

Not familiar with any air filter mods.  You may be thinking of the improved air intake system of the Js over Es and Fs.  The Js effective air intake makes Ram air ineffective and unnecessariy so It can be removed.  Certainly would be way down on the list of things to worry about--just leave it closed.

Fuel tank sealing is maintence.  If the tank is not leaking dont mess with it  It could outlive you without leaking.

If your engine is in good shape it will not have excessive blow by and will not need an air oil separator.

Someone mentioned gap seals and hinge fairings.  These are standard from the factory on Js along with other aerodynamic improvements.  

My 2 cents:  stick to basics dont get sidetracked by the small stuff.

 

[mooneyflyfast]

46 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

So, based on this our Mooney M20J with Missile conversion is a 1981 NOT a 1980 as listed with FAA Registration...hmmmmm.

My J is s.n. 1057. It was built in late 1980 and is listed by FAA as a 1980 but it is a 1981 model with all the 81 improvements (sculpted wing tips, etc.)

[carusoam]

Six vs. four cylinders....

four cylinders, all the intake tubes are identical... balancing FF and air flow is much simpler...

Lycoming six cylinder Bravos are challenging to run LOP...

Continental six cylinder Os and Acclaims run LOP until they just turn off...

 

So... consider the long list of nice to haves... as just that... nice to have.
Not required.

Not a flight safety issue...

If you are buying a forever plane, fully finished... find one with everything in it... but don’t complain about the UL or speed... 

Go TKS!

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

The difference is Boeing cockpits are bigger and entered from the rear, Mooney is from the right side, which means you have to squeeze past the quadrant. Making a small cockpit feel even smaller.

Is it any more difficult squeezing past the quadrant, or squeezing past the pulled-all-the-way-out throttle and mixture knobs?

Either way, once you're past, they're pretty much the same space-wise. Except with the push-pull knobs, you've no builtin ha drest on final, and you can't raise the flaps on rollout without letting go of the throttle and reaching for it. Me, I can hold the throttle to Idle, reach out a finger and raise the flaps . . . .

You just don't like it, and are stretching for "reasons" that don't exist to back up your personal preference.

[Missile=Awesome]

6 minutes ago, Hank said:

Is it any more difficult squeezing past the quadrant, or squeezing past the pulled-all-the-way-out throttle and mixture knobs?

Either way, once you're past, they're pretty much the same space-wise. Except with the push-pull knobs, you've no builtin ha drest on final, and you can't raise the flaps on rollout without letting go of the throttle and reaching for it. Me, I can hold the throttle to Idle, reach out a finger and raise the flaps . . . .

You just don't like it, and are stretching for "reasons" that don't exist to back up your personal preference.

Hank,

Really?  I have used both and I prefer Vernier to quadrant.  Glad you are “happy” with what you’ve got.  I am.

[Missile=Awesome]

17 minutes ago, mooneyflyfast said:

My J is s.n. 1057. It was built in late 1980 and is listed by FAA as a 1980 but it is a 1981 model with all the 81 improvements (sculpted wing tips, etc.)

We were so close to split removable rear seats...sigh.  

[jaylw314]

19 hours ago, Ryan ORL said:

Hi all,

I'm sure these types of questions get asked often, so I apologize in advance.  I'm a newbie to the Mooney community here, but I've been interested in purchasing one for quite some time.  I've finally gotten to the point where I am seriously considering doing it in the next month or so.

After doing a bit of searching to see what's on the market and thinking about my price range, I think I have decided a J model is right for me.  I had also considered an F model, but the (admittedly small) speed advantage of the J model is appealing, plus the J models that are available seem to be better equipped and less of a 'project'.   (I am hoping to buy something with the equipment I want rather than doing a whole avionics overhaul right off the bat.)

My 'mission' is basically IFR cross-country flying with my wife, which would seem to make really any of the M20 models pretty ideal for us.  We live in Florida, so there isn't often a need for very high-altitude flying (and therefore, I am not looking at any of the turbo-equipped models).  I also can more easily stomach the cost of an unexpected overhaul of the non-turbocharged engines.  My budget is ideally $110,000-$120,000.  Based on my preliminary research, it seems like that budget should be enough to find a reasonable example of a J model.  (Does that seem realistic?)

My personal experience level is moderate... I am a 600 hour part-time CFI/CFII, but virtually all of my time is in 172s/PA-28s.  My only actual hands-on experience so far with a Mooney is 10 hours or so I had in an M20F model a couple years ago, but I came away very impressed.  I expect the J model would fly fairly similarly, is that about right?

The most 'intimidating' thing for me about shopping for a Mooney so far is the huge variety of STCs that sellers advertise.  It seems like virtually every aircraft I look at has at least 2 or 3 STC'd modifications.

I guess my questions for this community would be... if you were shopping for a J model in my price range, what are the big desirable things to look for as far as STCs?  What are some early model-specific red flags I should watch out for (or ask sellers about) before I get deep into the process (pre-buy inspection, etc)?  Do you guys think my price range is realistic?  Does the year matter, or were the J models fairly consistent throughout the run?

Also, can you guys recommend any pre-buy services or brokers that specialize in Mooneys?  I have looked at SavvyPrebuy but have heard mixed reviews.

Thank you from a hopefully-soon-to-be Mooney owner

That is an appropriate price range for a solid to very good M20J with moderately upgraded avionics and a mid-time engine (probably the two things that modify price the most, I think).  You might find a low-time engine with mildly upgraded avionics or high-time engine with fancy avionics.

Most of the J's I've seen for sale do not have major airframe modifications, so we'd be curious which one's you're seeing...

Be prepared to spend an extra $5-10k with the buying process, including travel, pre-buy inspections, first-year insurance, and ferrying.

[PT20J]

My ‘94  has lots of STCs, some installed by the factory. Most are just due to the FAA’s silly paperwork requirements. Off the top of my head: speed brakes, EDM 700, Bose headset jacks, Brackett air filter, Rosen sun visors, Mod Works cowl stiffener, all the avionics changes over the years.

The point is that you have to separate the true modifications from the routine stuff. Most “speed mod” type Mooney STCs are to bring improvements made in the J to older birds and the Js don’t need them.

Skip

[M20F]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

Tell that to Boeing . . . .

I told them push/pull for the 737-Max and they didn’t listen.  

[ArtVandelay]

Is it any more difficult squeezing past the quadrant, or squeezing past the pulled-all-the-way-out throttle and mixture knobs?
Either way, once you're past, they're pretty much the same space-wise. Except with the push-pull knobs, you've no builtin ha drest on final, and you can't raise the flaps on rollout without letting go of the throttle and reaching for it. Me, I can hold the throttle to Idle, reach out a finger and raise the flaps . . . .
You just don't like it, and are stretching for "reasons" that don't exist to back up your personal preference.

No stretching, I sat in one and hit my kneecap on entry or exit, can’t remember now, hence the reason why I have a 78. I’m sure you can get used to it, I chose not to. I never touch the flaps on rollouts so that’s not an issue.
I always recommend prospective owners sit in one, the seating position is a love or hate thing. And if you have a significant other, they should also.

[rangermb]

My minor quibble with my 77J is the location of the tank valve. On the floor under your knees. You either have to have really long arms, be a contortionist or use a homemade extension handle to switch tanks.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, rangermb said:

My minor quibble with my 77J is the location of the tank valve. On the floor under your knees. You either have to have really long arms, be a contortionist or use a homemade extension handle to switch tanks.

That's the same place as in my C. My arms aren't long enough to make shirt shopping difficult, and I'm so uncontortionist that I can't even do yoga.

I just lean down, reach with my right hand and turn the valve every time the white hands on my yoke clock line up with the red hands.

[cliffy]

I tend to be like the classic car crowd when buying an airplane.

I look for the most stock, unmolested airplane I can find. 

Any stock J will serve you well. And you won't have to worry about who and how the mods were done. 

Buy one equipped with the radios and AUTOPILOT that you want 

Make money on someone else's depreciation factor!!!

Take your time  6 months is not too long to look AND NEVER BUY THE FIRST AIRPLANE YOU LOOK AT!

No need to jump at any deal. There will always be another good candidate to come along. Those who jump in quick land in a hole (money pit).

NEVER trust anything any salesman is telling you NEVER!  Verify everything and I mean everything from the data plates on engines, airplane and props even to the S/Ns of high value avionics to all the log book entries. 

Spend a month or two just looking at Mooneys for sale Try to find a few near by to go look at with no intention of buying them. Mooneys are very much alike so look at all models. Get educated first hand.

This exercise will give you invaluable information to file away when actually looking at J models. An educated buyer doesn't get screwed in the end as many have even here on this site  over the years. 

Get a good prebuy by someone who KNOWS Mooneys and what to look for and where to look for it. Its worth the money. Many have bypassed this to their regret

Look here for prebuy items on Mooneyspace. LOTS of threads on it

Get educated BEFORE you buy.

[mhrivnak]

Good choice. I bought a J in that price range this summer.

For pre-buy, it's going to depend on where the airplane is that you end up interested in. There are lots of Mooney Service Centers, so that's a good start if there's one nearby. The one I bought had been maintained at the only MSC in the area, and of course it's a no-no to have the shop that maintains it do a pre-buy, but I was able to find a different shop nearby with a lot of Mooney expertise in part by searching this forum.

I'm a big fan of the pre-buy philosophy from these guys: https://www.airplaneprebuy.com/ Listen to their podcast, read some of their materials, and seriously consider at least letting them do an FAA paperwork analysis and/or log analysis for you. Every detail matters, and you want to know what discrepancies you are acquiring with your new airplane, both physical discrepancies and paperwork discrepancies. Plan to be there if at all possible. If not, plan to communicate with the shop regularly throughout the day in case their findings impact your decision to continue the process.

For me, these were some key Mooney-specific feature preferences to determine in advance, and they helped me filter out which airplanes I would consider:

• Bladders or no? There are pros and cons both ways.
• Speed breaks? Many like them and see them as a value add, but others (<cough> me) don't want the weight, don't want another system to maintain, and are happy without them.
• Two blades or three? Not a huge deal, and many are rightfully just thrilled to be in a Mooney without caring how many blades are up front, but there are some pros and cons that might matter to you.

It's worth being aware of useful load. Js got modestly heavier over time, and eventually around 1990 they raised the MGW by 160lbs, bringing the useful load back to a similar range as the original Js. That's a factor that was important to me.

[skykrawler]

19 hours ago, carusoam said:

Six vs. four cylinders....

four cylinders, all the intake tubes are identical... balancing FF and air flow is much simpler...

Lycoming six cylinder Bravos are challenging to run LOP...

Continental six cylinder Os and Acclaims run LOP until they just turn off...

 

I don't think this is true. But it is moot.

Later J models starting s/n 13-3218 (some earlier can be modified) have a higher maximum gross weight 2740 -vs- 2900 with a percentage of that becoming more useful load.  See the history spreadsheet link posted earlier. 

[N56394]

On 11/28/2020 at 8:47 AM, Missile=Awesome said:

We were so close to split removable rear seats...sigh.  

The removable rear seats are a really nice feature to have to load bigger things!!

[toto]

The one big caution I would offer to a first-time airplane owner is to have a buffer in your budget for the inevitable first-year unknown expenses.

Sometimes it’s a maintenance issue that wasn’t obvious in the pre-buy, sometimes it’s an avionics upgrade, sometimes it’s safety equipment (shoulder belts, 406mhz ELT, etc). 

No matter how much effort you put into finding the perfect plane, you will have expenses that you didn’t expect. And those expenses could easily run 25% or more of the purchase price. So if $130k is the max you’re prepared to spend on this venture, you might confine your search to the best $100k plane you can find. Or plan on spending $160-170k total in the first year if you go with the $130k purchase. 

In my mind, the worst-case scenario is having a nice new-to-you airplane sitting on the ground waiting for the money to “get it right.”

[carusoam]

5 hours ago, skykrawler said:

I don't think this is true. But it is moot.

Later J models starting s/n 13-3218 (some earlier can be modified) have a higher maximum gross weight 2740 -vs- 2900 with a percentage of that becoming more useful load.  See the history spreadsheet link posted earlier. 

MFF mentioned some detail of Lycoming vs. Continental...

where this could be of interest... is M20J vs. M20J/missile vs. the other Continental engine found in the Mooney Mart upgraded planes...

So... if digging deep into what STCs can be found on M20Js.... this could be relevant...

Depends on what the buyer has in mind...

A Continental powered M20J (not the missile) changed hands around here recently... (the flaming cowl one)...

Best regards,

-a-

[Ryan ORL]

14 hours ago, mhrivnak said:

Good choice. I bought a J in that price range this summer.

For pre-buy, it's going to depend on where the airplane is that you end up interested in. There are lots of Mooney Service Centers, so that's a good start if there's one nearby. The one I bought had been maintained at the only MSC in the area, and of course it's a no-no to have the shop that maintains it do a pre-buy, but I was able to find a different shop nearby with a lot of Mooney expertise in part by searching this forum.

I'm a big fan of the pre-buy philosophy from these guys: https://www.airplaneprebuy.com/ Listen to their podcast, read some of their materials, and seriously consider at least letting them do an FAA paperwork analysis and/or log analysis for you. Every detail matters, and you want to know what discrepancies you are acquiring with your new airplane, both physical discrepancies and paperwork discrepancies. Plan to be there if at all possible. If not, plan to communicate with the shop regularly throughout the day in case their findings impact your decision to continue the process.

For me, these were some key Mooney-specific feature preferences to determine in advance, and they helped me filter out which airplanes I would consider:

• Bladders or no? There are pros and cons both ways.
• Speed breaks? Many like them and see them as a value add, but others (<cough> me) don't want the weight, don't want another system to maintain, and are happy without them.
• Two blades or three? Not a huge deal, and many are rightfully just thrilled to be in a Mooney without caring how many blades are up front, but there are some pros and cons that might matter to you.

It's worth being aware of useful load. Js got modestly heavier over time, and eventually around 1990 they raised the MGW by 160lbs, bringing the useful load back to a similar range as the original Js. That's a factor that was important to me.

I actually am working with the pre-buy guys.  They're relatively local (one of them used to be in my flying club) so they were my first choice, and they're great so far.

Regarding the bladders... I thought all the Mooneys had bladders.  (Or rather, were not a wet wing)  Can you point me to some of the pros and cons?  Which do you prefer?

Regarding the speedbrakes, the Mooney I had flown was not equipped, but I thought I had heard they were relatively ineffective.  Is that accurate?

Good to know about the late model year MGTOW increase.

Edited November 29, 2020 by Ryan ORL

[PT20J]

7 hours ago, skykrawler said:

On 11/28/2020 at 8:31 AM, carusoam said:

Six vs. four cylinders....

four cylinders, all the intake tubes are identical... balancing FF and air flow is much simpler...

Lycoming six cylinder Bravos are challenging to run LOP...

Continental six cylinder Os and Acclaims run LOP until they just turn off...

 

Expand  

I don't think this is true. But it is moot.

While not strictly true, it is a fact that the Lycomings generally have pretty good mixture distribution for two reasons: Care is taken to equalize the length of the intake tubes, and the intake air runs through the sump which warms the it. The latter actually reduces the volumetric efficiency of the engine somewhat (because it decreases the the air density) but the warmer air aids in the mixing with the fuel. The more homogeneous the mixture before the intake valve opens the better for reducing cycle-to-cycle variations in each cylinder. Some cycle-to-cycle variation is inevitable because of the chaotic nature of combustion in the cylinder which will cause some roughness, especially LOP, no matter how well the injectors are matched.

The Piper Warrior had a carbureted Lycoming that would run well LOP and the procedure is in the POH.

Skip

[bmcconnaha]

I actually am working with the pre-buy guys.  They're relatively local (one of them used to be in my flying club) so they were my first choice, and they're great so far.
Regarding the bladders... I thought all the Mooneys had bladders.  (Or rather, were not a wet wing)  Can you point me to some of the pros and cons?  Which do you prefer?
Regarding the speedbrakes, the Mooney I had flown was not equipped, but I thought I had heard they were relatively ineffective.  Is that accurate?
Good to know about the late model year MGTOW increase.

The bladders are an STC upgrade, Mooney aircraft have wet wings. Part of your pre buy should include a good look at any fuel leaks, so you can either adjust your offer for one needing a reseal, or go into your purchase with both eyes open. Mine had a couple leaks from screw heads that I need to reseal, but they are extremely minor.

Speed brakes are very effective. I don’t have them and wish I did. Speed control in a mooney on most days is easy. The place I would say would be the greatest application for speed brakes would be ATC keeping you high too close to the airport. The other days I would find them useful is in turbulence during the descent. To get to VA, You’re either going to be descending with very little power, with the gear horn beeping, or dropping the gear a ways out from the airport to dirty the plane up. All in all, I wish I had electric speed brakes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[cliffy]

Anyone ever hear of slipping in level flight to reduce airspeed instead of speed brakes?

Can even be used the last 200 ft of altitude to the runway to bleed off excess airspeed?

Speed brakes? Speed brakes? We don't need no stikin' speed brakes :-) 

[M20F]

53 minutes ago, cliffy said:

Anyone ever hear of slipping in level flight to reduce airspeed instead of speed brakes?

Can even be used the last 200 ft of altitude to the runway to bleed off excess airspeed?

Speed brakes? Speed brakes? We don't need no stikin' speed brakes :-) 

I have a magnetic placard on my panel that says F.  When I need to slow down, I remove it and replace it with a G placard. 
 

Note of caution when slipping low, be on the high wing tank.