Best Value Mooney

[wcb]

From what I have heard the speed difference in an E and F is negligible even though the F is longer (roughly 12 inches).  I am certainly not the expert here but from what I understand is that the extra length did not really change the aerodynamics and the weight difference is only 60 lbs.   Someone here can also tell you how much per 100 lbs it will cost you in kts.  I think if my memory is correct I remember something like 1 or 2 kts per 100 lbs.  That would mean the speed difference due to weight between an F and E is around .6 to 1.2 kts. and you get 12 more inches.

[Hank]

The "best value Mooney" regardless of model is one that has been regularly flown, properly taken care of, has the equipment you want already installed and is offered at a fair price. Hangar queens are never a "value" unless you're an A&P with time on your hands (or a bunch of students who need training and practice), or you're just looking for a parts plane and not one to fly.

[Hank]

8 minutes ago, wcb said:

From what I have heard the speed difference in an E and F is negligible even though the F is longer (roughly 12 inches).  I am certainly not the expert here but from what I understand is that the extra length did not really change the aerodynamics and the weight difference is only 60 lbs.   Someone here can also tell you how much per 100 lbs it will cost you in kts.  I think if my memory is correct I remember something like 1 or 2 kts per 100 lbs.  That would mean the speed difference due to weight between an F and E is around .6 to 1.2 kts. and you get 12 more inches.

There should be some E owners along to refute this soon. It was one of Bob's favorite discussions--the superior performance of the E model versus all other pre-J Mooneys.    My C has no dog in this fight . . . . .

[wcb]

11 minutes ago, Hank said:

There should be some E owners along to refute this soon. It was one of Bob's favorite discussions--the superior performance of the E model versus all other pre-J Mooneys.    My C has no dog in this fight . . . . .

And, my F can really only be compared to an E if it has the RayJay Turbo.  It is interesting through the years I see a whole lot more F's that got the Turbo than E's.  It would really be interesting to hear someone that has owned both.  According to Rising Up the cruise difference is 4 kts(how much is weight and how much is length?  Because other than that they are for all practical purposes the same plane.).  Who here has a RayJay E model with the numbers from say 15k feet.  I get about 160 kts tas in normal cruise at that level.  I can go to economy cruise to slow down or max cruise to pick up even more speed (best is roughly 170kts).

https://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane349.shtml

https://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane350.shtml

[MooniacSC72]

Welcome KJC,

Former Army aviator fixed/rotor. I love my 67 C. My kids are a little smaller 5&1. We primarily travel the southeast and I use the plane to commute to work. Very efficient. Also fun around the pattern and local area. Airplane expenses creep up on you quickly and the affordable C model helps you keep that in check. You’re going to want to upgrade any plane you buy...guaranteed. So be ready to spend a little on your first annual as your IA gets to know your plane and then you’ll want to consider adding options like GPS, AP, engine monitor, digital AI, shoulder harnesses, etc. I hear people say that spending this money on a C is a waste. I disagree. The C is a very efficient platform...not many airplanes can check all the boxes that a C model can check. In my humble opinion it’s the total cost you’ll spend on the plane that matters and that is purchase price plus upgrades, maintenance, insurance, hangar, etc. I think the market is waking up to that and people are willing to pay for an efficient plane that has good tech so I think the likelihood of losing money on a C is getting slimmer daily. Certainly the other perspectives listed here are valid. It all depends on you, your mission and your budget but I think the C is an excellent choice. Find a good one, upgrade it, enjoy it. Good luck!!

Edit: Just to give you a sense for size and comfort. This was us a few weeks ago on a three day trip to Gatlinburg, TN from Greenville, SC. I’m 6’3”, 220lbs, we were all comfortable and nowhere near gross and we had more room for luggage. 50 min flight. MUCH better than the 3-4 hour drive. I probably wouldn’t want to fly this for more than 5-6 hours but that will get you a long way. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by MooniacSC72
Added content

[0TreeLemur]

Best value starts with skill to identify your mission, a thorough pre-buy inspection, and I would say luck.   Patience is a real virtue when looking for an airplane. 

Our C sprung a serious fuel leak seven months after we acquired her, necessitating an unexpected and expensive tank reseal.  That's the luck component.  I've got other examples.    Buy the one you want that has the features you want.  Upgrades can be really expensive and reveal unexpected surprises as well. 

Buy one that has been loved.   Spend more upfront for that and you'll save money in the future.  Good luck!

[M20F]

On 11/21/2020 at 8:24 AM, wcb said:

And, my F can really only be compared to an E if it has the RayJay Turbo.  It is interesting through the years I see a whole lot more F's that got the Turbo than E's.  It would really be interesting to hear someone that has owned both.  According to Rising Up the cruise difference is 4 kts(how much is weight and how much is length?  Because other than that they are for all practical purposes the same plane.).  Who here has a RayJay E model with the numbers from say 15k feet.  I get about 160 kts tas in normal cruise at that level.  I can go to economy cruise to slow down or max cruise to pick up even more speed (best is roughly 170kts).

https://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane349.shtml

https://www.risingup.com/planespecs/info/airplane350.shtml

In almost all scenarios the E will beat you, 4-5hr trip with nice tailwind the F likely wins but that’s about it.  The bigger tanks in the F help as well.  The F is the tortoise the E is the rabbit, but how often is the mission a marathon versus a 200NM ring. 
  
I own a TN-F and while it is faster up high FL190-210 being the sweet spot (160-170 TAS for me).  The climb eats up your TAS gain unless it is a long leg or the winds vastly improve in the climb. 
 
The E is the best Mooney out there for 2.  
 

[M20F]

21 hours ago, MooniacSC72 said:

Just to give you a sense for size and comfort. This was us a few weeks ago on a three day trip to Gatlinburg, TN from Greenville, SC. I’m 6’3”, 220lbs, we were all comfortable and nowhere near gross and we had more room for luggage. 50 min flight. MUCH better than the 3-4 hour drive.

A 1 & 5yr old aren’t much of an argument for backseat room.  For the Kool-aide drinkers that want to do it feel free, for people actually thinking about a Mooney don’t believe it. 
 
Single pilot the low race car style seats with no knee bend suck after 3hrs.  The back seat of F/G/J/etc. is very nice side saddle for 1 person (single in the back is the best seat in a Mooney).  The back of a C/E sucks.  Side by side in any Mooney you are going to rub shoulders in the front. 
 
Fast, economical, and cheap it’s why I bought one.  It ain’t a Bonanza or Comanche though which if you got the $$ is a much better overall experience and why they both sell for more than Mooney’s. 
 
Great airplanes which is why I own one but they are certainly limited in the space/comfort side of the equation. 

[wcb]

For the 4 bangers at least.  I would consider the Cessna the Tortoise and the E the rabbit (F still a rabbit but a 4 knot slower rabbit according to rising up) and our TN's rabbits on roids?  I also use my turbo from 5 to 10k and it still makes a difference for sure.

[MooniacSC72]

19 minutes ago, M20F said:

A 1 & 5yr old aren’t much of an argument for backseat room.  For the Kool-aide drinkers that want to do it feel free, for people actually thinking about a Mooney don’t believe it. 
 
Single pilot the low race car style seats with no knee bend suck after 3hrs.  The back seat of F/G/J/etc. is very nice side saddle for 1 person (single in the back is the best seat in a Mooney).  The back of a C/E sucks.  Side by side in any Mooney you are going to rub shoulders in the front. 
 
Fast, economical, and cheap it’s why I bought one.  It ain’t a Bonanza or Comanche though which if you got the $$ is a much better overall experience and why they both sell for more than Mooney’s. 
 
Great airplanes which is why I own one but they are certainly limited in the space/comfort side of the equation. 

“Kool-Aid drinkers”??? Kind of a dick thing to say. What kind of kool aid are you drinking if you buy a C? It’s a great airplane and a great value. 

[M20F]

17 minutes ago, wcb said:

 I also use my turbo from 5 to 10k and it still makes a difference for sure.

At 10000’ you get 75% power with 21/27 in a NA Mooney so the RayJay helps in the climb especially when you are heavy.  A light E will out climb you though.  Once leveled off the E will pull away.  
 
The RayJay really doesn’t drive TAS until you put on O2 and the climb rate even with the turbo is anemic.  Passing through 11000 you will see about 500 FPM and after 15-16’ish it gets less to keep the CHT down.  I can get FL250 in the winter and light (me and full fuel) in about 50-60 mins.  190-210 tend to be the best TAS higher for the winds when applicable. 

[M20F]

8 minutes ago, MooniacSC72 said:

“Kool-Aid drinkers”??? Kind of a dick thing to say. What kind of kool aid are you drinking if you buy a C? It’s a great airplane and a great value. 

I think it is disingenuous to imply Mooney’s are roomy or a C/E has a big back seat to people looking to purchase.  They are great planes as I note, I own one, overall best $ for results.  They are definitely not the best planes out there and have short comings. 

[Immelman]

I am late to the party here, and I like our airplane but want to urge some caution. Call me old school but I think if you really want to haul 4 (post adolescent) people for any distance, you need 6 seats. Your kids will be growing to adult size before you know it!

If you want to haul them across the country.... buy an airline ticket. There, I said it. If you want to take the kids to Oshkosh or some other grand flying centric adventure, that is another animal. But if you want transportation, hauling 4 in a Mooney won't be that fun.

The first issue you will run into is running out of baggage space. There is plenty for 2. Enough for 3. For 4???.The second issue, with a M20C/E, will be running out of leg room and that depends on the relative lengths of folks. I am 6'3". I fit GREAT up front, very comfortable! Can someone sit behind me? Not really. We have done ONE long trip with 3 adults. A pilot friend of mine was shorter and sat right seat. My wife (5' 9") sat behind him. We were all reasonably comfortable. 3/4 seats filled and that was it.

Another trip, 3 big buys. Camping and climbing gear. We were stuffed, out of room. 3/4 seats filled.

My recommendation, try before you buy. The Mooney community is very welcoming. See if you can find someone near you to demo the plane, if nothing else to get the family to sit in it. And be realistic about how much stuff you'd like to take with you, and see how that fits too.

 

And don't worry about which model is 5-10 knots faster or slower than the other. That speed will be VAPORIZED to time lost on the ground playing baggage tetris, deciding what will be left behind, or making extra pit stops if someone isn't comfortable. Speed is a third-order concern behind cabin volume, useful load, and altitude performance.

 

Forgot to say, we have owned an E model for 13 yrs. Family of 2+dog for many years, now family of 3.

Edited November 22, 2020 by Immelman

[MooniacSC72]

3 minutes ago, M20F said:

I think it is disingenuous to imply Mooney’s are roomy or a C/E has a big back seat to people looking to purchase.  They are great planes as I note, I own one, overall best $ for results.  They are definitely not the best planes out there and have short comings. 

There was nothing disingenuous about what I said. That’s why I gave him my exact scenario and even my dimensions so he could understand exactly where I’m coming from. Yes, my family and I are comfortable in that plane for several hours. If you have a family, you sound like the kind of guy that nobody would want to fly with. Or maybe you have a really fat wife and kids and it’s uncomfortable. If so, just say that. Now go fly your Mooney by yourself and leave the adults to have a genuine conversation about size, comfort and the value of what it is I am flying...not what you’re flying. I’m guessing you have never owned a C and speak only from a lack of experience. 

[MooniacSC72]

4 minutes ago, Immelman said:

I am late to the party here, and I like our airplane but want to urge some caution. Call me old school but I think if you really want to haul 4 (post adolescent) people for any distance, you need 6 seats. Your kids will be growing to adult size before you know it!

If you want to haul them across the country.... buy an airline ticket. There, I said it. If you want to take the kids to Oshkosh or some other grand flying centric adventure, that is another animal. But if you want transportation, hauling 4 in a Mooney won't be that fun.

The first issue you will run into is running out of baggage space. There is plenty for 2. Enough for 3. For 4???.The second issue, with a M20C/E, will be running out of leg room and that depends on the relative lengths of folks. I am 6'3". I fit GREAT up front, very comfortable! Can someone sit behind me? Not really. We have done ONE long trip with 3 adults. A pilot friend of mine was shorter and sat right seat. My wife (5' 9") sat behind him. We were all reasonably comfortable. 3/4 seats filled and that was it.

Another trip, 3 big buys. Camping and climbing gear. We were stuffed, out of room. 3/4 seats filled.

My recommendation, try before you buy. The Mooney community is very welcoming. See if you can find someone near you to demo the plane, if nothing else to get the family to sit in it. And be realistic about how much stuff you'd like to take with you, and see how that fits too.

 

And don't worry about which model is 5-10 knots faster or slower than the other. That speed will be VAPORIZED to time lost on the ground playing baggage tetris, deciding what will be left behind, or making extra pit stops if someone isn't comfortable. Speed is a third-order concern behind cabin volume, useful load, and altitude performance.

I agree about the 5-10 knot arguments. One guy gets vectored for traffic and the other guy gets a direct. Speed advantage gone. 

[M20F]

25 minutes ago, MooniacSC72 said:

Or maybe you have a really fat wife and kids

Son, is that you?

[carusoam]

SC72,

I implore you to reconsider...

We are short on ladies around here...

We have a few that stop adding their experience to the conversation every time the locker room talk breaks out.

 

read a few posts around here... you will notice the guys actually control their typed language pretty well...

there are a surprising amount of people buying Mooneys that prefer the kinder gentler discussion forum... many range from low 20s to high 70s... men and women... around the world...

It can be challenging to change the way one writes... just know that it is for the better community...

Thanks in advance...

Best regards,

-a-

[MooniacSC72]

11 minutes ago, M20F said:

Son, is that you?

[MooniacSC72]

Just now, carusoam said:

SC72,

I implore you to reconsider...

We are short on ladies around here...

We have a few that stop adding their experience to the conversation every time the locker room talk breaks out.

 

read a few posts around here... you will notice the guys actually control their typed language pretty well...

there are a surprising amount of people buying Mooneys that prefer the kinder gentler discussion forum...

It can be challenging to change the way one writes... just know that it is for the better community...

Thanks in advance...

Best regards,

-a-

Fair enough. I think I lowered myself to the level of conversation in the string but I’ll be nice to M20F from here on out.

[Petehdgs]

On 11/20/2020 at 5:18 PM, Tim Jodice said:

The best value Mooney is a C. 

Take the most expensive part, the engine. An overhauled O-360-A1A for a C is 23,901.  An IO-360A1A for an E,F is $29,521. Those numbers are from Airpowerinc.com.

Less powerful engine your will burn less gas.

lower value airplane lower insurance premiums. 

What he says is true but I would only add this:  Comparing a C to an E the extra power is available if you need it, and it can lay in waiting if you don't.   My E cruises at 10k 140kts at 8 GPH, every bit as good as a C,  plus I have 20 extra HP for better takeoff and climb.  The best of both if you ask me.  

Edited November 22, 2020 by Petehdgs

[KJC1333]

All, great comments,  greatly appreciated. Found a 1965 M20E with a great interior and low time prop with most speed mods. Avionics are a shortcoming but that seems to be the only constraint that I could address over time. I’ve been quoted by two insurance companies, one for $2800 and one for $3300 annually. Do you any of you have a preferred insurance carrier or financing entity? Lastly, also curious if you have preferred lenders for purposes of terms and interest rates. Thanks! 

Edited December 4, 2020 by KJC1333

[carusoam]

For insurance check in with @Parker_Woodruff

-a-

[Pilot boy]

On 11/19/2020 at 9:18 AM, KJC1333 said:

I’m looking at purchasing my first airplane and am strongly considering a Mooney given the value and performance. I’m an Army Aviator with 1600 hours total time; about 120 in fixed wing with the rest in rotary wing. Most of my fixed wing experience is in Cessnas of one kind or another. I understand the transition to Mooneys is largely focused on attention to airspeeds on final considering the tendency to float if too fast. Ideally I’d like to pursue the transition and learn in my own airplane versus paying someone else’s plane payment. 
 

That’s my background. As far as the mission for the plane, I have a family of four, kids ages 9 and 11, and we’d ideally not exceed three hours of flight time on a given flight period due to bladder constraints. Flying initially would be relegated to the east coast, however we have a home in Oregon we plan to return to, where mountain flying could enter the mission scope. Price point is ideally less than 75K.
 

Considering mission and price point,  I’d prefer an F model (larger cabin and extra 20HP) but noticed the price points on C and E models are more competitive. I’d appreciate any counsel from the forum as the the feasibility of a C or E model given the mission and price. Love the Js but it mag be a bridge too far given my desire for upgraded avionics for IFR flight ($$$)

Thanks!

I have a 1964 M20E and as far as price, power, and speed I’d definitely recommend it.  I cruise at 140 to 150 knots and usually with any sort of tailwind my groundspeed is 170 knots or greater most of the time.  (Saw 205 knots 2 weeks ago but that was an unusual day).  
However, the back seat is small and fairly narrow.  You can fit 3 adults pretty easily but with useful load in my plane Iof 992 lbs etc I probably wouldn’t try 4 very often.  Also, We have 1.5 yr old and plans for 2nd baby in near future...Wife and I are planning to upgrade to a larger plane most likely when the kid gets older into the teen years.  I’d say it’s very iffy with your mission.  I fly country solo for work via multiple states so it works well but when the kids get to big and heavy it wont.  You seem much closer to that stage.  Weight will probably be little bit of an issue with 4 plus your bags.  
The C and E do have better price point (I shopped all last year and found my plane just this past July) than F and G.  I wanted and F or G but this E turned up near home and had great paint, autopilot (critical I’d add that to must have list if you do any sort of longer trips, Garmin 430Waas, fuel bladders, single piece windshield and the modified lower cowling among other mods.  So it was just too good to pass up.  I love it.

Handling is great in the Mooney E model, flies great.  I think the landing float is largely myth personally.  I’m working on my commercial pilot accuracy landings in it and it’s not terribly hard.  Yes it is a little more difficult than a Cessna probably for the accuracy standards Of commercial checkride but floating at least the older vintage C or E off a runway I’m not even sure how you do that.  The big thing is just manage the speed properly on final like everyone says so don’t land at 100 mph or you’ll float a little.  
 

C model is same as E just the carbureted version which is probably easier to start than my E once it’s not lol.

 

[Pilot boy]

On 12/3/2020 at 10:20 PM, KJC1333 said:

All, great comments,  greatly appreciated. Found a 1965 M20E with a great interior and low time prop with most speed mods. Avionics are a shortcoming but that seems to be the only constraint that I could address over time. I’ve been quoted by two insurance companies, one for $2800 and one for $3300 annually. Do you any of you have a preferred insurance carrier or financing entity? Lastly, also curious if you have preferred lenders for purposes of terms and interest rates. Thanks! 

I used Avemco and I think I was at like $2300 starting out.  Helps to have AOPA membership I think.  I only had about 180 hrs in fixed wing with my instrument.  It dropped again at either 30 or 50 hrs of time.  The told me it will drop again when I hit 125 hrs which will be in like a month at my pace.  Avionics are NOT cheap.  I’m looking at several options for the old shotgun panel and I can’t get it down below $10k very easily.  

Edited December 5, 2020 by Pilot boy

[Pilot boy]

On 11/22/2020 at 5:12 PM, Petehdgs said:

What he says is true but I would only add this:  Comparing a C to an E the extra power is available if you need it, and it can lay in waiting if you don't.   My E cruises at 10k 140kts at 8 GPH, every bit as good as a C,  plus I have 20 extra HP for better takeoff and climb.  The best of both if you ask me.  

I second this with my E.  It takes off like a freaking rocket almost straight up when I’m solo.  I can pull it back in cruise to 4.8 GPH if I inky want to do 110 knots but my numbers match the above when in cruise.  It’s not a fuel hog.  The engine overhaul  cost is the biggest concern, it will be slightly more...but more hp always better.  Only downside to the E engine is that it can be a little tough to start when it’s real hot out or the engine is real warm but you get used to the special techniques pretty fast (you can google Mooney M20E hot starts or flooded starts to get an idea) and then it’s not as big an issue.  I still occasionally have a little trouble with it but not often and at most I have to sit there for a couple minutes before trying again