IFR Instrumentation - VSI's

[tmo]

15 hours ago, Skates97 said:

the G5 installation manual it says that the VSI must be retained

But if it "did not exist" (as in "was not required to exist" by regulation or the TCDS) in the first place, there is nothing to retain, possibly. English not my first language and all that. IOW, remove the VSI, be legal, install G5, no VSI to retain.

Why one would do that is a different question and philosophy isn't my strong suit. Especially in English

[JimB]

On 11/1/2020 at 10:25 PM, Skates97 said:

This came up in a different thread but I wanted to start a new thread rather than completely sidetrack that one. I thought that the VSI was required, but from looking through 91.205 at required instrumentation it is not. This brings up my question. I am just now getting into studying for my IFR written. If you don't have a VSI in the plane, how would you make sure you are meeting the minimum climb gradient?

Hank,

I am working on my instrument as well and have access to a Diamond DA 40 NG simulator with the G1000 system. Doing partial panel with the G1000 air data computer and ahrs failed is interesting. There is no VSI or TC and you become very reliant on a timer for turns, climbs, etc along with flying the compass. 

[Skates97]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

this is where the requirement for IFR flight shows the VSI... 

In the POH limitations section... the MEL.... 

check out the foot note that goes with that...   **** When required by the appropriate regulations... 

So... if you are a legal Eagle, and know what the ‘appropriate regulations’ are...

You may not need the device... in all other cases... it is listed in the MEL so you need it for this plane...

When is anybody going to ask to see your VSI?

I’m sorry sir, I’ll need to have representation prior to showing you my VSI...

I think we are going to need an aviation attorney to give an opinion on this technical legal issue... or the POH’s author...

Best regards,

-a-

Except there is no MEL in the POH for my 1965 D.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, JimB said:

Hank,

I am working on my instrument as well and have access to a Diamond DA 40 NG simulator with the G1000 system. Doing partial panel with the G1000 air data computer and ahrs failed is interesting. There is no VSI or TC and you become very reliant on a timer for turns, climbs, etc along with flying the compass. 

That's just another thing to not like about the G1000 . . . . .

[PT20J]

If you don't have a flight director, there are a couple of times when a VSI will help you fly instruments more precisely.

First, while it is true that a standard pressure VSI will have a bit of lag before accurately indicating large changes in vertical speed, it is very sensitive to small changes and especially the direction of change. It will show a climb or descent well before it shows up on the altimeter. Keeping the VSI in your scan and adjusting pitch to keep the needle zeroed will allow you to more precisely hold altitude.

Second, the proper way to fly an ILS or LPV glideslope is to maintain a descent rate rather than chase the needle. Again, the VSI is very sensitive to small changes and using it to guide pitch changes will make your approaches much more precise.

Skip

[carusoam]

For Richard... @Skates97

Not exactly your POH...

But, from the POH I used to use when I had a 65C...

So... by extension... it kinda applies to your M20D, circa 1975...

See if you can get a copy of the latest POH for the M20C...

This idea comes from the late great Bill Wheat...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

 

[Skates97]

I have that one too for a '77 C and use it more than the original one from my plane, but it still doesn't specify a VSI. I have the VSI in my plane and plan on leaving it in the panel, it just surprised me that it wasn't "required."

[carusoam]

That and no EGT required either... 

Without EGT or FF...

how would we know how much fuel we are actually using each hour... might be 10gph or could be 15gph depending on how we leaned the mixture...  lean til rough, then twist some back in... that might be near 10gph..............

what would happen if you forgot to finish leaning for a while, or didn’t note the time... you would have no idea how much fuel got used in the mean time... and the actual fuel quantity is now unknown... except for the fuzzy details offered by the fuel tank floats...

back to the flying based on seat of the pants methodology... only the cognitively strong survive..?

I like learning the history of the rules... then using technology to exceed the requirements...

Glide rings have got to be the best invention...

-a-

[Hank]

How about that! For the curious, this is the rest of the C model list of Required Equipment:

[carusoam]

I can only imagine what happened...

1) The effort of scanning two sides of a single piece of paper...

2) They were oriented properly in one app... but not oriented when they got here...

3) The other app doesn’t allow a 360° re-orientation... so it is now a two step process...

4) Finally re-oriented properly, I copied them here...

5) First in the wrong order...

6) Then two of the same page...

7) Then it was correct....

8) But....

Now Hank isn’t seeing what I’m seeing hours later...   

 

I’d like to thank Siri... she delivered a new version of OS 14.1....

She said it was going to be great!

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

Why is the landing light only required ‘if used for hire’...

I forgot the logic, if any existed...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, carusoam said:

I can only imagine what happened...

1) The effort of scanning two sides of a single piece of paper...

2) They were oriented properly in one app... but not oriented when they got here...

3) The other app doesn’t allow a 360° re-orientation... so it is now a two step process...

4) Finally re-oriented properly, I copied them here...

5) First in the wrong order...

6) Then two of the same page...

7) Then it was correct....

8) But....

Now Hank isn’t seeing what I’m seeing hours later...   

 

I’d like to thank Siri... she delivered a new version of OS 14.1....

She said it was going to be great!

Best regards,

-a-

Ahhh! I didn't revisit above. The first time, only the second page was there. Now they both are.

Mine above is an electronic copy of the actual 1970 Owners Manual, not just a scan of my old one gracefully browning around the edges . . . .

Edited November 4, 2020 by Hank

[carusoam]

My pages are a beautiful piece of white plastic.... designed to last a really long time....

The brownish light, illuminating them is the handsome glow of old style light bulbs... 

Oddly, that and the flash was so bright... the other side of the page is lightly showing through...

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

Why is the landing light only required ‘if used for hire’...

I forgot the logic, if any existed...

Best regards,

-a-

Because they want the flight school to maintain their rentals properly, since they charge so much for them? I can't complain, I got a free student hour when the plane I had booked for night instruction, and preflighted, had the landing light die while I was eating supper and waiting on darkness, and the other 172's landing light was also burned out! "Used for hire," so no night flying until the bulbs were replaced (but not on the ramp at 10pm!).