Model Guidance

[GaryP1007]

So I recently started flying a 231 and am mostly positively inclined.  I don't like the amount of engine management requiredand since I have enjoyed doing Angel Flight in the past I would like a Mooney with a bit more useful load and space if that is doable.

Which Mooney should I be targeting?

[Davidv]

5 hours ago, GaryP1007 said:

So I recently started flying a 231 and am mostly positively inclined.  I don't like the amount of engine management requiredand since I have enjoyed doing Angel Flight in the past I would like a Mooney with a bit more useful load and space if that is doable.

Which Mooney should I be targeting?

Cue everyone suggesting the model they own.  
 

I’ll start by saying you should get a Bravo. In all seriousness, it may be the most under appreciated model and it’s not overly complex besides watching your temps since it’s got a pretty decent density controller.  For instance, on takeoff there’s no “setting power” like the 231. It’s throttle full forward, Boost pump automatically turns on, and the density controller does the rest.

Edited October 24, 2020 by Davidv

[wcb]

Ok, I will play along.  Since I own and F with turbo normalization buy an F with a RayJay Turbo.

Seriously though we need more info.  Like budget etc.  I can dial it up or down the a turbo normalizer and really do enjoy it.  I feel like I have as much room as I need and have useful load of over 1050.  That being said when given an inch you want a mile.  I always want more speed.  If budget allows for the Encore (the top of variant of 231) it is a great machine or how about a Missile or Rocket?  Of course I would love an Acclaim Ultra if you are handing them out.

So, give us more info and we are happy to spend your money!!!!

[Hank]

Isn't engine management easier with the 252 / Encore? Or can the 231 engine be equipped similarly to reduce workload? GB engine? Or GB-->LB conversion or something? I forget . . . .

[StevenL757]

32 minutes ago, GaryP1007 said:

So I recently started flying a 231 and am mostly positively inclined.  I don't like the amount of engine management required and since I have enjoyed doing Angel Flight in the past I would like a Mooney with a bit more useful load and space if that is doable.

Which Mooney should I be targeting?

It depends on your budget and mission.  If you live in Chandler and are considering flights in, around, or over mountains, you'd be wise to consider a TLS or Bravo.  If you don't want the added expense of a turbo, you'd probably want to consider an Ovation...in which I've done many Angel Flights; however, either aircraft would fit your purpose given your "want" list.

Unless I misunderstood the first part of your second sentence, engine management is a necessity no matter what you own, so I wouldn't suggest using it as a cornerstone in deciding what you want.  If the airplane you pick fits your mission, learn how to manage it entirely, and at the top and bottom of its operating envelope.  

Steve

[Rwsavory]

A Mooney with more space and useful load?  That would be a Comanche 250/260 or a Bonanza A36.

[wcb]

12 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

It depends on your budget and mission.  If you live in Chandler and are considering flights in, around, or over mountains, you'd be wise to consider a TLS or Bravo.  If you don't want the added expense of a turbo, you'd probably want to consider an Ovation...in which I've done many Angel Flights; however, either aircraft would fit your purpose given your "want" list.

Unless I misunderstood the first part of your second sentence, engine management is a necessity no matter what you own, so I wouldn't suggest using it as a cornerstone in deciding what you want.  If the airplane you pick fits your mission, learn how to manage it entirely, and at the top and bottom of its operating envelope.  

Steve

And, in the Ovation world is the Eagle with sometimes a little more useful load.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, GaryP1007 said:

So I recently started flying a 231 and am mostly positively inclined. 

While the trim mechanism on a Mooney works differently than most, you can still trim the nose down with the trim wheel between the seats.   If it has electric trim and it works, the button on the yoke may do the same thing.

An F or J has less engine management than a 231, and potentially a little better UL.   No turbo, but that doesn't usually prevent much.

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Rwsavory said:

A Mooney with more space and useful load?  That would be a Comanche 250/260 or a Bonanza A36.

You beat me to it!  Although I’d suggest the 400HP version for some strange reason.

Clarence

[GaryP1007]

2 hours ago, wcb said:

Ok, I will play along.  Since I own and F with turbo normalization buy an F with a RayJay Turbo.

Seriously though we need more info.  Like budget etc.  I can dial it up or down the a turbo normalizer and really do enjoy it.  I feel like I have as much room as I need and have useful load of over 1050.  That being said when given an inch you want a mile.  I always want more speed.  If budget allows for the Encore (the top of variant of 231) it is a great machine or how about a Missile or Rocket?  Of course I would love an Acclaim Ultra if you are handing them out.

So, give us more info and we are happy to spend your money!!!!

Budget can be up to $175k.

[Ragsf15e]

The only ones with “more space” are the long bodies... Bravo, Eagle, Ovation and Acclaim.  They are longer but much of that length is in the baggage compartment.  The cockpit is similar size, however, many are newer and better laid out so they do feel bigger.

All the other models are same size or smaller than the 231.  
 

If size was ok, and you just want more UL, an F would work.  They are good haulers.  Mine has 1035lbs UL.  145kts, ~10gph.

From your budget and desires, I’d say Eagle or Ovation.  Both are NA, fairly simple engine management, good performance, even at altitude.  Eagle likely has more UL.

[carusoam]

Gary,

What you need...

That single engine control that was available with that one Long Body...   That was cool...

It’s Friday...
 

If you don’t give enough info about your flying requirements... DavidV gave an explanation of what to expect...

 

I want to work for the New Mooney Company selling planes...

Lets run through the alphabet to see what plane matches your needs...

To save time... let’s start at the top of the alphabet...

How about an M20V...

1) You like turbos...

2) You like volume...

3) You like color screens...

4) You like highly advanced pressure controllers...

Or we could start from the other end... there are a lot of M20As around here that match your list and price rage...

Help yourself out give some details about what you are hoping to find...

Doesn’t sound like a turbo is necessarily in your plan other than you are flying one now... And it’s too complex...

Go O!

Best regards,

-a-

[jlunseth]

19 hours ago, GaryP1007 said:

So I recently started flying a 231 and am mostly positively inclined.  I don't like the amount of engine management requiredand since I have enjoyed doing Angel Flight in the past I would like a Mooney with a bit more useful load and space if that is doable.

Which Mooney should I be targeting?

I am the same as you. I have a 231 and have over a thousand hours in it. I have flown 16 AF missions so far this year. Given your budget (175k) and the useful load requirements you can't really do much better than what you have. Engine management is a non-issue to me, but I have quite a bit of practice at it.

A typical AF flight is you, two passengers and 50lbs of luggage plus the fuel. Let's say you are 200, the typical passenger/baggage load is going to be 350-400, that's 600 total on the high side. Full fuel in the 231 is 448 (75.6 Gal. x 5.92) That puts you at 1050 for that max load flight. In almost all Mooneys you are going to have to leave out some fuel to do that. My UL is 919 so that full load flight would give me 53 gallons of fuel. If you can't carry a total load in the 1050 range you are going to have to not accept quite a few Angel Flights.

When I fly AF I almost never take the passengers into the O2 levels (above 12k), some are children, many are respiratory-impaired, it is just not a good risk. The benefit side is that means I can fly Lean of Peak. My magic numbers are 34" 2450 RPMs and 11.1 GPH which gives me very good fuel flow and good speed. It is about 71% power. Generally I am in the range of 150 - 165 kts depending on altitude. The 11.1 GPH gives me an endurance with that 53 gallons of just a little less than 5 hours. For flight planning, of course, we don't use endurance. Most AF flights are in the 2-3 hour range, so there is plenty of fuel for that. I just don't do flights if I would have to carry less than 50 gallons.

To beat that with another model is not easy. Say you found a Bravo in your price range. Generally they are not going to beat the UL of the 231, but you are looking at a fuel flow in the 17+ range so you are going to need to carry more fuel and therefore less payload.

Generally speaking when you get past the Bravos and early Ovations (say, an Acclaim or later Ovation) you are either out of your stated budget range or are buying an aircraft in need of avionics or major maintenance or both, and in the Acclaims in particular the UL starts to drop pretty hard. They are very fast, but more towards your personal, one-person airliner than a load carrier. Your best choices with your constraints are the 252, 231, J, and possibly one of the older normally aspirated Mooneys like the F. There may be Rockets/Missiles/Eagles around that would fit also.

The 252 might be the ideal solution if you can find one in your price range. The 252 has a basically set-and-forget throttle, same engine as your 231 except later generation that runs cooler. Prices have gone up in the past couple of years. The last 252 Encore with FIKI TKS was listed at 239k on Controller.com a couple of months ago and it did not last long. 252's are definitely in demand.

If you can get along without FIKI and don't mind getting an aircraft that is going to need some work, hunt for a 252 with a good UL. Frankly, UL's can be all over the landscape depending on the equipment package, you are going to have to be choosy. The Rockets/Missiles/Eagles are generally right at your budget top. But don't forget to look hard at the avionics. Angel Flights often involve hard IMC. The old King systems are marginal for that and are getting harder to keep maintained. If you buy an aircraft with the standard King systems 256/525 and no GPS or an older one you are probably looking at some pricey avionics upgrades in the not too distant future.

Hard to best the Mooney's fuel efficiency and speed for Angel Flights. The single engine Pipers and Cessnas just don't have the reach the Mooney will.  I generally look for missions where I can take two or even three legs, the Mooney is unique in its ability to do that. In the SE Pipers and Cessnas because of the lower speed it becomes too much of an endurance contest for health compromised passengers to fly a two or three leg flight in just one hop. The 231, despite the throttle management, generally has a really good combination of useful load and speed. Hard to beat.

PS having the turbo available is pretty nice. For one thing, it lets you to to 10 or 12k with the passengers without breaking a sweat. But it is really nice if you fly a long mission east to west and then just want to get home. My longest flights this year were Minneapolis to Billings via Fargo. At the end of that it was nice to get into the flight levels and boogey back home with ground speeds in the 200 and up range. I carried 250+ pounds of blood and bone marrow, filled the aircraft completely, from Fargo to Billings. I have carried total payloads of 635. Have to respect the 231's capacity to do that.

Edited October 24, 2020 by jlunseth

[Grandmas Flying Couch]

I have an F with useful of 1030lbs.  Fuel is 55 gal with bladders leaves payload of about 700lbs.  She climbs well and I cross the Grand Canyon at 12,500 ft pretty regularly.  She cruises about 145-150 kts TAS on 9 gal per hour at 8k pretty easily since adjusting gear door and a few other things that made her fly sideways.  

Here is my engine management:

Everything firewalled for take off cowl flaps open

Turn off boost pump at about 500 AGL watch fuel pressure

Above 5k lean to keep egt needle where it was at Take off

at cruise reduce rpm to 2550 or where ever feels smoothest, lean to about 25-45 LOP or 100-150 ROP (about 5-7 kts difference), close cowl flaps leave throttle wide open

Decent, I trim the plane nose down to obtain the 500-700 fpm, richen as I go down to keep egt in place, cowl closed 

When I get close to airport start closing throttle to obtain gear speed, increase RPM to full (add drag) if Airport is below 5k I push mixture in if above I leave at 200 ROP flip on boost pump when real close.    

That's about it.  

 

 

[GaryP1007]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:22 AM, jlunseth said:

I am the same as you. I have a 231 and have over a thousand hours in it. I have flown 16 AF missions so far this year. Given your budget (175k) and the useful load requirements you can't really do much better than what you have. Engine management is a non-issue to me, but I have quite a bit of practice at it.

A typical AF flight is you, two passengers and 50lbs of luggage plus the fuel. Let's say you are 200, the typical passenger/baggage load is going to be 350-400, that's 600 total on the high side. Full fuel in the 231 is 448 (75.6 Gal. x 5.92) That puts you at 1050 for that max load flight. In almost all Mooneys you are going to have to leave out some fuel to do that. My UL is 919 so that full load flight would give me 53 gallons of fuel. If you can't carry a total load in the 1050 range you are going to have to not accept quite a few Angel Flights.

When I fly AF I almost never take the passengers into the O2 levels (above 12k), some are children, many are respiratory-impaired, it is just not a good risk. The benefit side is that means I can fly Lean of Peak. My magic numbers are 34" 2450 RPMs and 11.1 GPH which gives me very good fuel flow and good speed. It is about 71% power. Generally I am in the range of 150 - 165 kts depending on altitude. The 11.1 GPH gives me an endurance with that 53 gallons of just a little less than 5 hours. For flight planning, of course, we don't use endurance. Most AF flights are in the 2-3 hour range, so there is plenty of fuel for that. I just don't do flights if I would have to carry less than 50 gallons.

To beat that with another model is not easy. Say you found a Bravo in your price range. Generally they are not going to beat the UL of the 231, but you are looking at a fuel flow in the 17+ range so you are going to need to carry more fuel and therefore less payload.

Generally speaking when you get past the Bravos and early Ovations (say, an Acclaim or later Ovation) you are either out of your stated budget range or are buying an aircraft in need of avionics or major maintenance or both, and in the Acclaims in particular the UL starts to drop pretty hard. They are very fast, but more towards your personal, one-person airliner than a load carrier. Your best choices with your constraints are the 252, 231, J, and possibly one of the older normally aspirated Mooneys like the F. There may be Rockets/Missiles/Eagles around that would fit also.

The 252 might be the ideal solution if you can find one in your price range. The 252 has a basically set-and-forget throttle, same engine as your 231 except later generation that runs cooler. Prices have gone up in the past couple of years. The last 252 Encore with FIKI TKS was listed at 239k on Controller.com a couple of months ago and it did not last long. 252's are definitely in demand.

If you can get along without FIKI and don't mind getting an aircraft that is going to need some work, hunt for a 252 with a good UL. Frankly, UL's can be all over the landscape depending on the equipment package, you are going to have to be choosy. The Rockets/Missiles/Eagles are generally right at your budget top. But don't forget to look hard at the avionics. Angel Flights often involve hard IMC. The old King systems are marginal for that and are getting harder to keep maintained. If you buy an aircraft with the standard King systems 256/525 and no GPS or an older one you are probably looking at some pricey avionics upgrades in the not too distant future.

Hard to best the Mooney's fuel efficiency and speed for Angel Flights. The single engine Pipers and Cessnas just don't have the reach the Mooney will.  I generally look for missions where I can take two or even three legs, the Mooney is unique in its ability to do that. In the SE Pipers and Cessnas because of the lower speed it becomes too much of an endurance contest for health compromised passengers to fly a two or three leg flight in just one hop. The 231, despite the throttle management, generally has a really good combination of useful load and speed. Hard to beat.

PS having the turbo available is pretty nice. For one thing, it lets you to to 10 or 12k with the passengers without breaking a sweat. But it is really nice if you fly a long mission east to west and then just want to get home. My longest flights this year were Minneapolis to Billings via Fargo. At the end of that it was nice to get into the flight levels and boogey back home with ground speeds in the 200 and up range. I carried 250+ pounds of blood and bone marrow, filled the aircraft completely, from Fargo to Billings. I have carried total payloads of 635. Have to respect the 231's capacity to do that.

Thank you for the detailed and constructive comments.  Very much appreciated.