Ovation owners. Smallest runway you will land on?

[Mooneymuscle56m]

8S2 Cashmere Dryden 1,800x50’

has a decent slope, land west, leave east.

M20TN

It will never happen again. 

 

[carusoam]

Nothing like reaching flying speed and watching the trees getting larger in the windshield...
 

Knowing your calculations are right on target...  DA and T/O distance assured...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooney217RN]

I can safely land at SQL in the Bay Area.  That's about 2,500' of runway at sea level.  I wouldn't want to try a shorter runway.  Can I clear in 2,000'?  Yes.  Will I land it on a 2,000' runway?  No.

[M20S Driver]

Let's discuss the short field landing with a crosswind   

I flew to Oceano ( L52) on Sunday landing on runway 29er.  The runway is 2315 feet long and 50 feet wide.  Winds were from 220 to 260 at 9 gusting to 16.   I came in around 70 kts since I was the only one in the plane and gradually pulled the power back whiled making a few small cross wind corrections and chopped off power after flare,  right before touch down.  It worked fine but is there a better way?

When I first did my transition training, the short field was always power off.  While I was at the airport, I noticed another Mooney and a Bonanza both came in a bit faster and chopped the power over the fence.  Both very seasoned pilots.

I have done both methods but feel more comfortable with power on in gusty days but not sure if engine power versus carrying more kinetic energy (faster speed) makes a big difference .  My question to high time Mooney members is to comment on these two approaches and if for any reason one may be better than the other?  

Driver

[exM20K]

4 hours ago, M20S Driver said:

Let's discuss the short field landing with a crosswind   

I flew to Oceano ( L52) on Sunday landing on runway 29er.  The runway is 2315 feet long and 50 feet wide.  Winds were from 220 to 260 at 9 gusting to 16.   I came in around 70 kts since I was the only one in the plane and gradually pulled the power back whiled making a few small cross wind corrections and chopped off power after flare,  right before touch down.  It worked fine but is there a better way?

When I first did my transition training, the short field was always power off.  While I was at the airport, I noticed another Mooney and a Bonanza both came in a bit faster and chopped the power over the fence.  Both very seasoned pilots.

I have done both methods but feel more comfortable with power on in gusty days but not sure if engine power versus carrying more kinetic energy (faster speed) makes a big difference .  My question to high time Mooney members is to comment on these two approaches and if for any reason one may be better than the other?  

Driver

Power-off, and you’ve got the energy you’ve got.  A little power on and behind the power curve, and you can take energy out of the mix in the flare.  Simultaneously rolling in nose up trim and rolling out power works well for me.  Learn what it looks and feels like on a big runway, obviously.

-dan

[carusoam]

Driver,

There are a few bits of detail that you didn’t cover in your data...

To get a better feel for all the things available for all landings...

get a copy of Don Kaye’s Mooney landing info...

Weight, speed, configuration, technique... Including gust factor...

If you are going 70 Kias and the gust abates...a 7knt drop in speed would occur...  How close to 58kias do you want to be?

This is a discussion of energy management...

Too much energy you go long...

Too little, you fall short...

It won’t matter how you keep the energy in... leave the engine running or cut it a mile back...
 

What you are describing is a gusty day... and landing on a short runway...
 

Did you use a gust factor with that?

There will be limits to how much you want to take on with short and gusty...

PP thoughts, Not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[M20S Driver]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

get a copy of Don Kaye’s Mooney landing info...

If you are going 70 Kias and the gust abates...a 7knt drop in speed would occur...  How close to 58kias do you want to be?

What you are describing is a gusty day... and landing on a short runway...
Did you use a gust factor with that?

Thanks but this is not the answer to the question that I asked.  My question is more about the advantages of the different methods.  However.... 

I bought Don's Landing Video a few years ago and have been using it.  I was at 2700lbs landing on a short runway and Don's table shows 80 as approach speed minus 5 for short field and minus 5 for every 300 lb below gross weight.  This makes it about 80-13.3=66.7 kts.  Add a 50% gust factor which is 3.5 kts and you get 70.2 kts.  I was coming in about 70-73 give or take.  

[carusoam]

On 10/12/2020 at 10:59 PM, M20S Driver said:

Thanks but this is not the answer to the question that I asked.  My question is more about the advantages of the different methods.  However.... 

I bought Don's Landing Video a few years ago and have been using it.  I was at 2700lbs landing on a short runway and Don's table shows 80 as approach speed minus 5 for short field and minus 5 for every 300 lb below gross weight.  This makes it about 80-13.3=66.7 kts.  Add a 50% gust factor which is 3.5 kts and you get 70.2 kts.  I was coming in about 70-73 give or take.  

Thanks for filling in the data...

I couldn’t follow along from the original post without it...

could be just me...  

My next sticking point is where you cut back the flow of energy...

Usually, when you have the runway made... the power gets removed...

If you hold it in until the flare... there is definitely a better way...

Use caution watching seasoned pilots... they make mistakes as well...

Or am I missing something here too?  

I miss a lot of detail.
 

Expect to type a lot of detail in, to keep everyone on board...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[Fly_M20R]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:49 PM, flyer338 said:

Thank you all for the videos. Am I missing something; it looks like in the video posted by alexz it looks like the cowl flaps are closed for the entire video.

Ovations don't have cowl flaps. The cowling is tight with superb baffling and air flow design. Two small openings up front for air intake and air exits through openings around  exhausts on both sides. The low drag cowling makes it a bit more difficult to control speed on final since it is much lower drag than other Mooneys, including Bravos. Speed brakes become useful in shorter field landings.

[Raymond J1]

1968 ft grass

 

 

[arikanoandy]

On 9/29/2020 at 11:44 PM, kmyfm20s said:

Of course it depends a lot on altitude and wind. The shortest runway I land on is 2100’ is in Monument OR. Altitude of 2500’ msl. Occasionally I go to Fallbrook here in San Diego at 2160’ but it at an altitude of 700’ msl.

My I flew with my buddy down to Fallbrook last year, and he barely got his Grumman AA1 stoped before the end of the runway.  Scared the daylights out of me!

[Niko182]

44 minutes ago, arikanoandy said:

My I flew with my buddy down to Fallbrook last year, and he barely got his Grumman AA1 stoped before the end of the runway.  Scared the daylights out of me!

All about speed control. Ive been there before, and it isnt an issue if you touch down at the start of the runway.

[kortopates]

I took my student pilot J model to land at Fallbrook for his Short Field final exam. Yep, he bought a J to get his Private in! Fallbrook is intimidating not just because it's short and narrow (2160 x 60) but because its on top of a hill like Catalina with abrupt drop offs at both ends, forcing good short field technique.

A steeper than normal descent, without power the last 50-100', at Vso*1.2 for the weight*,  leading to a faster than normal flare done later in ground effect absorbs more energy resulting in a shorter rollout.  

* additional allowances reqired for gusts and/or cross winds

I have to be the contrarian on landing the M20S/R being any more difficult. The lack of cowl flaps have no effect in trimming the aircraft for speed control. Personally, I think the long body's are easiest of all to land as they have more stability than the short body's. Just be carefull to not over rotate and cause a tail strike!   

Don't we all wish the O had superior baffling, but cooling for the #5 on all of the TCM powered Longbody's (NA and Turbo) is one of the bigger baffling issues across the entire fleet. 

[Fly_M20R]

On 9/29/2020 at 10:32 PM, r0ckst4r said:

Being a relatively new Ovation pilot I have relegated myself to a personal limit of 3000ft (well 2998 to be exact so I can go to Ocracoke Island ) to leave myself enough margin of error for a less than stellar landing.  There is another runway by me that is absolutely tiny at 2500ft and only 36 ft wide, essentially a city street.  Technically with good winds this is within the published limits of the aircraft but not quite my limits as of yet.  So this of course raised my curiosity and I wanted to hear from my fellow pilots.  What was the smallest runway you have managed to land on?

Consider that once you land your landing roll will be between 1300 to 1500 ft with some use of brakes for the shorter distance. You can then add any distance between the threshold and touchdown point to the landing roll.

• If your aimpoint is the threshold and you are approaching at 1.3 Vso (say 75 KIAS) without speed brakes you will land around 600 - 700 ft beyond the threshold. That means you should be able to land without difficulty in a runway that is less than 2500 feet and more likely 2200-2300. Key is speed control.
• If you approach at 80 KIAS you will find that you land on the TDZE (painted white landing spot on a runway) which is 1000 feet beyond threshold. Add 1500 feet of landing roll and you have minimum of 2500 foot runway.
• Using speed brakes at 1.3 Vso will get you to touch down some 300 feet beyond the threshold. Add landing roll and you should be able to land in 1600 - 1800 feet. 

I find it difficult to control speed at slower than 75 without speed brakes. Even keeping approach speed nailed at 75 is a bit difficult without speed brakes because of the lower power setting in that configuration unless you are doing a flat approach.

To check out my landing distance today I was at 2800 lbs landing weight and approached at 74-75 KIAS with speed brakes on a 3 degree slope (after RNAV approach) and stopped after 1600 feet of runway. Touched down in ~300 feet (per Google maps measurements). 

CK

[Fly_M20R]

On 9/30/2020 at 8:01 AM, Raptor05121 said:

We have an Ovation owner based out of Cannon Creek, (15FL) which is 2300x 25 paved

Runway 36 is 3100 ft from threshold to first road at the Northern end which has a turnaround. It is 24 ft wide. Rwy 18 is about the same length from its displaced threshold. Plenty of runway although surrounded by trees which creat crazy up and down drafts with strong crosswinds. Rwy 18 has high trees near approach end and it slopes down. 

[Tommooney]

On 9/29/2020 at 9:19 PM, Angelfall said:

This have been my limit so far: Isla Contadora in  Panamá.  2100x30

I would really enjoy a trip report on this from beginning to end in USA. Even if years ago. Panama is on my bucket list. Thanks.

[carusoam]

JR,

Is that an Airpark in Lille?

Mooney Airpark life looks better every year… 

Best regards,

-a-

[Raymond J1]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

JR,

Is that an Airpark in Lille?

Mooney Airpark life looks better every year… 

Best regards,

-a-

Yes, in "Verchocq", near "Boulogne sur Mer" and "Le Touquet". This is for small planes, but the Ovation is a high-speed STOL plane here.. You'll notice that the 600m is not fully used... Lol

Edited July 13, 2021 by Raymond J

[dooleypster]

On 9/29/2020 at 9:09 PM, carusoam said:

Is that Dan’s handy videos?  @exM20K He is out in the Chicago area with an Acclaim...

One of the key things to do...

Is to really get to know your plane...

And follow-up with all the short field and soft field procedures... for both T/O and landing...

Transition Training is Really good for that...

My home away from home was 5B6 on Cape Cod... Runway is 2300’ Long and paved...
 

Energy management are the key words...

No room for 10 kias extra on the landing... with trees all around, combined with wind... it is important to know how the wind is going to affect your flight as you get closer to the ground....

Without enough information, you might make an approach that intentionally ends in a Go around... just to gather info pertinent to today’s landing...

 

T/Os also get good adhesion to procedure... most importantly, go vs. no go at the halfway point... if you haven’t reviewed your density altitude calculations... now is the time to get refamiliarized...

Landings also get good adhesion to procedure... know where you need to be on the ground... anywhere near the halfway point is an automatic Go around...do not wait, do not slow down...

If you are slow to execute the GA... going off the end of the runway may be better than stalling in the trees after the runway...
 

You don’t need to be super human to use a 2k’ long runway... You will want to follow the laws of physics closely...   And know where the emergency landing areas are after The tree line....

 

Suddenly the 310hp version of the IO550 really has value... 

To know your plane better... use a portable WAAS device in conjunction with your CloudAhoy app... measure your T/O and landing distances with accuracy to about 1’...

No stalling around...   

PP thoughts only... Not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

Lived at 5B6 for almost 17 years....don't remember ever seeing you come in...to bad...would loved to have talked Mooney with you.  Pete Dooley  N497R

 

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, dooleypster said:

Lived at 5B6 for almost 17 years....don't remember ever seeing you come in...to bad...would loved to have talked Mooney with you.  Pete Dooley  N497R

 

Hey Pete!

my parents and grandparents had houses under the traffic pattern at 5B6…. We used our M20C to help have my kids know their grand parents…

The Ovation only visited 5B6 for two years…. Before short runways became too challenging for me… 

Kids are all grown… have to figure out where to live for the fun part of life…

Working on my short runway skills is becoming a priority again…   

How did you like Falmouth  Airpark?

Best regards,

-a-

[Robert C.]

On 7/12/2021 at 1:04 PM, kortopates said:

Don't we all wish the O had superior baffling, but cooling for the #5 on all of the TCM powered Longbody's (NA and Turbo) is one of the bigger baffling issues across the entire fleet. 

@kortopates Paul, you solved a major puzzle for me, thank you! Since getting a Surefly EI installed I've been trying to figure out how to keep the #5 CHTs down, now I know it isn't me or my IA who screwed up   

[rbp]

When my Bravo was based at KOAK, I practiced landing on 28R and turning off at taxi speed at Echo, about 1400 ft from the threshold. 

Quite doable if you're at low gross weight, ON SPEED, full flaps, aerodynamic braking (full aft stick) and brakes. 

 

[Ibra]

Short runways on calm hot days are fine, you can fly really slow on the backside of the drag curve with power but it's not the ideal configuration in (headwind) gusty days where you need the right amount of speed excess, so you can't mix the two forever but it's fine for one time visit...

As you are low time you need to get used to aircraft on long runways under various conditions and techniques before cutting it short, I tried flying Ovation in 2000ft runway but I figured out the combination aircraft & runway was not ideal for me: I am happy to fly Mooney in weather & windy days when I can't fly tailwheel vintage aircraft, having a short runway will kill that joy...

Edited July 25, 2021 by Ibra

[Ibra]

On 7/13/2021 at 12:03 PM, Raymond J said:

Yes, in "Verchocq", near "Boulogne sur Mer" and "Le Touquet". This is for small planes, but the Ovation is a high-speed STOL plane here.. You'll notice that the 600m is not fully used... Lol

I recently visited Verchocq AirPark in C172 from Toussus with wife & baby, we stayed for the nights in the AirVilla, I always wanted to visit the place in Mooney but we felt to break the golden rule: never visit turf/grass/gravel unless you fly Cub or C172 on it (short of sending a friend with Bonnie or Arrow to have a look first), I can confirm it's Mooney propeller friendly and has short landing distance uphill, hopefully we can visit again in M20J from London another time 

We land at LeTouquet first as weather seemed IFR before going on low VFR to Verchocq (they had one DC3 flying Paris Orly to LeTouquet, we should have invited them to try Verchocq )

PS: JL mentioned a Mooney landed there, small world, I guess that is yours 

 

 

 

 

 

IMG_3548.HEIC

Edited July 25, 2021 by Ibra

[carusoam]

Ibra’s pics…  IFR into VMC….  
 

Kinda easier to see this way.

-a-