380 mile commute. What is the best Mooney for $125,000 purchase price?

[Willie]

6 hours ago, MIm20c said:

No perfect plane out there, just do the best you can for your mission. Flying an Ovation and M20c back to back and side by side I’m amazed how capable even the lowly C is. For a 400 mile trip the block to block difference is around 20 mins depending on winds. Where the Ovation pays off is the 1000 mile hops in a day. So if your planning on marking the round trip in a day I’d go as much speed as you can afford. Otherwise, with as much flexibility you mentioned, any plane with a backward tail will work great. 

It wouldn’t be in a calendar day but it would be about 24hrs apart. I have a very regular Wednesday work trip that I would go up for Tuesday afternoon/evening. Then return about same time next day. 

[Willie]

7 hours ago, Greg_D said:

PM me if you want to talk specifics about this plane.  I ferried it to TX from CA for Jimmy a little over a month ago.

Thank you Greg for over an hour of your time on the phone today. You educated me on many subjects! 

[carusoam]

Way to go Greg!

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[kmyfm20s]

12 hours ago, jlunseth said:

So much theory and not much reality.

I have a 231 that I fly a lot, but I very rarely fly it for work and don’t get myself in “gotta get there” scenarios. That includes making the outbound trip and then “gotta get home” by a schedule. My aircraft is not FIKI. We have lots of icing issues here in the midwest, they start about now and run through about April. Dispatchability in non-FIKI is always an issue during that period. Mooneys do not carry ice well, trust me on that, and you do not want to get into it without a very good, clear, out.

Yes, 252’s can be FIKI, but your budget was 125,000 and there are all of five or six FIKI 252’s out there in the world, when they do come on the market they are around 240,000 right now.  You can buy a non-FIKI and add FIKI, but adding FIKI is 75,000. 

About 8 or 9 years ago we lost a family here in Minneapolis in a J accident.  Went out west to go skiing, I think it was Jackson Hole but it has been awhile.  Sent mom home commercial when the weather was not cooperating.  Dad was a business executive.  Tried to out wait the weather for four days, but got impatient.  Decided the weather was good enough and he could make the climb out. Loaded himself and two young sons in the J. It did not have the weather capacity or climb rate to get through the winter weather, probably icing was a factor. At any rate, they impacted terrain in a CFIT. I have flown the mountains quite a bit. The J and Missile guys will hate me, but as far as I am concerned you have no business using a normally aspirated in those conditions if there is any chance you will find yourself pressured to get there.  If you have all the time in the world and can wait for CAVU with no mountain waves fine.

I like Don K’s recommendation of a FIKI Bravo for you alot.  Just understand the acquisition cost is going to be around a little less than double your budget.  When a FIKI Bravo comes on the market, and there have been very few lately, they are around 229,000 unless the engine is a run-out.

Sorry but overconfidence in a turbo will get you in just as much trouble. A 231 would not have had a better outcome for this pilot, even if it had ice protection. I have flown that area many times over the years and he could have not made a worse decision to take off that day and certainly pick the worse place to cross over IFR in any single engine piston plane in that weather.  For that matter IFR in any mountain area out west is crazy. Like I mentioned earlier even if I had FIKI most the time I would need it I would opt not to fly! They crashed only a few miles from where I Elk hunt often. 

[kortopates]

15 hours ago, kmyfm20s said:

Sorry but overconfidence in a turbo will get you in just as much trouble. A 231 would not have had a better outcome for this pilot, even if it had ice protection. I have flown that area many times over the years and he could have not made a worse decision to take off that day and certainly pick the worse place to cross over IFR in any single engine piston plane in that weather.  For that matter IFR in any mountain area out west is crazy. Like I mentioned earlier even if I had FIKI most the time I would need it I would opt not to fly! They crashed only a few miles from where I Elk hunt often. 

Although this discussion is a tangent to the OP and the point of this thread - but what thread in Mooneyspace ever sticks to the original point - I'll share my thoughts. I'll disagree that the turbo would not have made a difference, but I'll agree its was 110% due to poor ADM that was criminal in my opinion as well as being totally naive about the hazards. 

But if he had a turbo, he would not have had to stop his climb below the MEA and barely skirt over the terrain abeam the Wind RIvers Range highest peak just shy of 14K. His inability to climb higher above the terrain sealed their fate by exposing them to the downdrafts as they flew to the leeward side. The final report suggest the pilot stall-spinned the Mooney trying to maintain altitude and plummeted straight down several thousand feet. The pictures of the wreckage are very disturbing with the tail still pointed up.

But it was the rookie pilot's incredibly poor ADM that put himself in the position that killed him and his 3 boys.  Just a few of the highlights included his departure into mountainous terrain with widespread AIRMETs for icings; which he justified to his wife before departure by telling her since their were no PIREPs for icing on his route that the conditions didn't amount to "Known Icing"  - so he could depart! His acceptance of a direct clearance right over the highest terrain of the Wind River wilderness area, when he had a much safer cleared route directly south of Jackson Hole to clear the higher terrain - but instead delegated his PIC responsibility to the controller and turned direct right into the highest terrain knowing full well what the terrain looked like from his MX20 MFD in his panel painting the hazardous terrain. The controller was faulted for that as well. The craziest thing is as John said earlier above, the pilot just had to get home. He had already cancelled his trip home in the Mooney, because of the weather, and bought tickets on a commuter. But after they boarded their flight, it was canceled due to an equipment issue. The pilot then called the FBO and asked them to ready his J model for flight  and move it outside.  Shortly thereafter he filed his IFR flight plan to the north before going east and soon thereafter he was copying his clearance for an entirely different route to the south following a departure procedure he had not considered - which actually got him out of the higher terrain sooner.  

The pilot had just completed a 10 day accelerated IFR class a couple weeks prior just to be able to make this trip for a wedding or anniversary, despite his instructor highly advising against it. Completing his rating a couple weeks prior to the trip, he then practiced flying local approaches in poor IMC weather at minimums. He had clearly had no concept of personal minimums. 

Although a turbo could have made a big difference here, this accident really isn't about equipment as much as it is about a lesson in just how bad pilot ADM can get when get-home-itis becomes entirely consuming and all decision making is delegated to controllers.  

Edited September 15, 2020 by kortopates

[Missile=Awesome]

9 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Although this discussion is a tangent to the OP and the point of this thread - but what thread in Mooneyspace ever sticks to the original point - I'll share my thoughts. I'll disagree that the turbo would not have made a difference, but I'll agree its was 110% due to poor ADM that was criminal in my opinion as well as being totally naive about the hazards. 

But if he had a turbo, he would not have had to stop his climb below the MEA and barely skirt over the terrain abeam the Wind RIvers Range highest peak just shy of 14K. His inability to climb higher above the terrain sealed their fate by exposing them to the downdrafts as they flew to the leeward side. The final report suggest the pilot stall-spinned the Mooney trying to maintain altitude and plummeted straight down several thousand feet. The pictures of the wreckage are very disturbing with the tail still pointed up.

But it was the rookie pilot's incredibly poor ADM that put himself in the position that killed him and his 3 boys.  Just a few of the highlights included his departure into mountainous terrain with widespread AIRMETs for icings; which he justified to his wife before departure that since their were no PIREPs for icing on his route that the conditions didn't amount to "Known Icing"  - so he could depart! His acceptance of a direct clearance right over the highest terrain of he Wind River wilderness area, when he a much safer  already cleared route directly south of Jackson Hole to clear the higher terrain - but instead he delegated all his PIC responsibility to the controller and turned direct right into the highest terrain and had to know full well what the terrain looked like with MX20 MFD in his panel painting the hazardous terrain. The controller was faulted for that as well. The craziest thing is as John said earlier, the pilot just had to get home. He had already cancelled his trip home in the Mooney, because of the weather, and bought tickets on a commuter, but after they boarded their flight, the flight was canceled due to an equipment issue. The pilot then called the FBO and asked them to ready his J model for the flight home and move it outside.  Shortly thereafter he filed his route to the north before going east and soon thereafter he was copying his clearance for an entirely different route to the south following a departure procedure he had not considered - which actually got him out of the higher terrain sooner.  

The pilot had just completed a 10 day accelerated IFR class a couple weeks prior just to be able to make this trip for a wedding or anniversary, despite his instructor highly advising against it. Completing his rating a couple weeks prior to the trip, he then practiced flying local approaches in poor IMC weather at minimums. He had clearly had no concept of personal minimums. 

Although a tubo could have made a big difference here, this accident really isn't about equipment as much as it is about a lesson in just how bad pilot ADM can get when get-home-itis becomes entirely consuming and all decision making is delegated to controllers.  

Congrats.  You just doubled down on your buddies insertion of ADM in this thread giving even more emphasis on a tragedy that has zero business here..even identifying thread creep and just saying “damn the torpedoes full speed ahead”.  Belongs as a separate discussion within safety thread NOT HERE.  Well done sir.

[kortopates]

7 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

Congrats.  You just doubled down on your buddies insertion of ADM in this thread giving even more emphasis on a tragedy that has zero business here..even identifying thread creep and just saying “damn the torpedoes full speed ahead”.  Belongs as a separate discussion within safety thread NOT HERE.  Well done sir.

Indeed- being sensitive to your earlier post and being clear its not directed to the OP - but show me one thread at 5 pages or more than EVER stuck to the original point of the thread. Sorry, but ALL topics here on MS take on their own life as they evolve with discussion. No one can control it and no one owns it. The only expectation, is we do our best to keep it civil, non-political and inviting for all to participate. 

Edited September 15, 2020 by kortopates

[Willie]

16 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Indeed- being sensitive to your earlier post and being clear its not directed to the OP - but show me one thread at 5 pages or more than EVER stuck to the original point of the thread. Sorry, but ALL topics here on MS take on their own life as they evolve with discussion. No one can control it and no one owns it. The only expectation, is we do our best to keep it civil, non-political and inviting for all to participate. 

Appreciate the thoughts on this fatal crash and I agree no Mooney or plane in my budget should have departed that day from Jackson on that route. Now let’s move this thread from sad to happy again..

I’m leaning towards normally aspirated models. I’m thinking a J with an updated panel and good autopilot would probably be good for me. It would be awesome to get the IO 550 Engine but I would have to increase my budget. But maybe it’s worth the increasing my budget not to deal with selling and buying again later. 
 

Or I get a partner and keep it in a hangar and get a more expensive newer plane...

[jlunseth]

14 hours ago, kmyfm20s said:

Sorry but overconfidence in a turbo will get you in just as much trouble. A 231 would not have had a better outcome for this pilot, even if it had ice protection. I have flown that area many times over the years and he could have not made a worse decision to take off that day and certainly pick the worse place to cross over IFR in any single engine piston plane in that weather.  For that matter IFR in any mountain area out west is crazy. Like I mentioned earlier even if I had FIKI most the time I would need it I would opt not to fly! They crashed only a few miles from where I Elk hunt often. 

My point was not about turbos vs. NA's. My point was about dispatchability, which is obviously an issue for the OP, and the likelihood of being pressured, into making a bad decision, however well thought through and intentioned. Sure, a turbo might have done better in that accident scenario, but it would have been a very poor decision to take off even in my 231. Buy the aircraft to fit the mission, and where the mission will include a high likelihood of IFR and icing, don't let yourself think that you can get by with equipment not suited to the task. That is the first step in breaking the accident chain.

As I said in my earlier post, I agree with the consensus recommendation, which is that the OP is going to run into dispatchability issues at his price point and really needs to reconsider what he buys. Whether that is an Ovation, which has the horsepower to make a high climb at a good rate, or a Bravo, or a 252, or an Acclaim, he needs to think about it.

There are four classes of aircraft under discussion. They are (1) the FIKI Bravo, Ovation, or Encore, and possibly the Acclaim, (2) the Missile, Rocket, Eagle, (3) the J, 231, and non-Encore, non-FIKI 252's, and (4) the older class, the F and other "vintage" models. Class one, in good condition, are in the range of 230,000. Class 2 are in the range of 150-175,000. Classes One and Two are outside the OPs budget. Class 3 fit the OPs budget and the aircraft are in a range of 75-125,000, Class 4 are less expensive. Obviously, these are broad classes and someone might find, say, an aircraft in an estate sale that is priced better. These ranges intentionally exclude runouts or near runouts. You can, for example, buy an M20M for as little as 125,000, but it is not going to be FIKI and to get FIKI added you will need to pay another 75,000, and a reman engine is very costly, in the range of 75k without the deinstall/install labor, so the 125k non-FIKI runout is at least a 275k project. The 125k M20M may not even have had the Bravo modification done. You have a lot of cost to bring it up to the mission parameters.

Where frequent IFR is concerned, and some mountain flying, you need to consider the redundancy of the major systems in the aircraft and the FIKI/non-FIKI issue. The J and 231, for example, were originally configured as vacuum driven nav systems, with a single alternator and a 12V system. This creates single points of failure in IMC. If the single alternator in the J or 231 quits, there is very little reserve in the one onboard battery and you will find yourself flying with the Master off, hopefully you will not be in IMC, because almost all of the panel will be dark. If the one vacuum pump quits you will have no AI in these models. Try partial panel without an AI in heavy convection sometime, you will understand the problem. There are conditions where you cannot avoid this risk, say, a mountain route or IAP that takes you directly through a Tstorm and ATC cannot give you a variance because of the granite on both sides of the course. 

It is easy to look at your existing panel and think you have an AI, and a DG, and a good Autopilot, you can handle most any conditions. Those of us who have had the pleasure of flying with the Master off after failure of the alternator, or with not AI after the vacuum failed, will tell you that you should really think hard about redundancy of systems. It is not a question of whether, it is a question of when, and whether you are in IMC at the time.

The J, I believe, can have a backup alternator added, the cost would probably be in the 6-10k range, add that to the budget. You cannot add a second alternator to a 231. There are limited glass solutions that can give you some redundancy for the AI if the vacuum quits. Glass instruments with a half hour or hour of backup are not enough, not in my opinion. If you are over mountains and above a layer you are going to need more than that to get to an airport, get down, and fly an IAP.  The best solution right now appears to be the dual G5 installation which gives you 4 hours. Add about $8,000 for that. Or a glass backup (around 5-6,000) to the existing vacuum AI, and replace the pump without fail at 500 hours (higher MX). 

The Class one aircraft were generally all configured from the factory with redundant alternators and 28V, which solves a lot of problems. They are all also FIKI capable and many have factory installed FIKI. I disagree with Don Kaye a little on his comment that the Bravo is a little bit unappreciated, if you watch Controller, any FIKI Bravo with reasonable times that is in the US and comes on the market, will get snapped up in about two weeks, tops. Which tells you what airmen think about the need for good systems and FIKI.

Another issue is climb rate and ability to sustain it, to get above weather. There is an article out there (the original MAPA Log article) that gives the average climb rate of a J at 736 fpm. The problem is that the temps are in the low 50's in their tests. Fly over Bakersfield in the middle of the summer when the temps are 100+ and you won't get that rate. You can't believe, and certainly cannot rely on the marketing numbers. A realistic sustained climb rate for a J or 231 is 500 fpm, and it is not realistic to think you will keep that climb rate past about 8k in an NA. Sure, there will be days when your climb rate is 1200 on takeoff, and you can climb 500 fpm at 10,000 feet. You should see our climb rates here in MN in the winter. But that is not every day, climbing out of an airport in MT, or western SD, or NM, PHX, etc. in the summer and trying to outclimb cumulus, you will not get anything like that, not even in a 231, not a reasonable engine temps you won't.

All of those are reasons why Don Kaye and others are trying to tell the OP that he needs to reconsider his budget and mission. So am I. 

Now, if the OP can, on any given day, just leave the aircraft at either end of the route and pick it up later, and if he is willing to do that religiously to avoid conditions beyond the envelope of the aircraft, then an F or C will work fine and fit the budget, or a J, or a 231. I like my 231 a lot, I fly LOP and the fuel flow is great for excellent speed. I liked the J I flew for awhile. But there will be a lot of time, mainly in the middle of the winter, multiple successive days or even weeks, when he is going to be tempted to fly and should not. 

@Awesome - no one hates anyone here that I know of, we all try to provide information based on experience.

 

[Bob - S50]

5 hours ago, Willie said:

Appreciate the thoughts on this fatal crash and I agree no Mooney or plane in my budget should have departed that day from Jackson on that route. Now let’s move this thread from sad to happy again..

I’m leaning towards normally aspirated models. I’m thinking a J with an updated panel and good autopilot would probably be good for me. It would be awesome to get the IO 550 Engine but I would have to increase my budget. But maybe it’s worth the increasing my budget not to deal with selling and buying again later. 
 

Or I get a partner and keep it in a hangar and get a more expensive newer plane...

I think you would be happy with a J.  Looking at what's available on Controller, many of them cost more than you want to spend.  Some have horrible useful loads.  ALWAYS ask about the useful load.  I'm also not a fan of the '77 model because of the fuel selector location and the lever engine controls vs the push pull with vernier.  Of those available on the site today, I'd look at this one:

'78 J, $70k  That would leave you with $55,000 for upgrades.  Dual G5's and a 2 axis GFC500 autopilot should be less than $25,000.  Add a GTN650, PMA 7000BT audio panel, and GTX345 ADS-B IN/OUT and you should be pretty close to your budget with a well equipped airplane.  You might even be able to use dual GI275's instead but that would cost several thousand more.  Or you might be able to include electric trim for another $2500 or so.  Advertised as 1024lb useful load but I'd want to see the history of changes to the W&B sheets.  And if it's correct, the engine has been changed from an A3B6D to a dual magneto A3B6 engine which is a plus in my book.  That would make an upgrade to a SureFly electronic ignition possible when funds permit.

Forgot to include, you need to include a good engine monitor to the installation too.

 

Edited September 15, 2020 by Bob - S50
Add engine monitor to the list of goodies to install.

[Missile=Awesome]

GMax has a Missile that was Don’s keeper plane for travel.  With negotiation this plane could be obtained below the current budget.  This checks normally aspirated box preference, useful load for family (>1000) and decent panel for IFR that is definitely upgradeable...

[Danb]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

Indeed- being sensitive to your earlier post and being clear its not directed to the OP - but show me one thread at 5 pages or more than EVER stuck to the original point of the thread. Sorry, but ALL topics here on MS take on their own life as they evolve with discussion. No one can control it and no one owns it. The only expectation, is we do our best to keep it civil, non-political and inviting for all to participate. 

Couldn’t agree more Paul if just one person who reads your response alters there thought process and decision making it’s worthwhile 

[Greg_D]

18 hours ago, Willie said:

Thank you Greg for over an hour of your time on the phone today. You educated me on many subjects! 

It was my pleasure.  As you could tell, I love Mooneys!  And the Bravo you asked about is a solid plane, offered at a very appealing price!

[ZuluZulu]

49 minutes ago, Bob - S50 said:

'78 J, $70k  That would leave you with $55,000 for upgrades.  Dual G5's and a 2 axis GFC500 autopilot should be less than $25,000.  Add a GTN650, PMA 7000BT audio panel, and GTX345 ADS-B IN/OUT and you should be pretty close to your budget with a well equipped airplane.  You might even be able to use dual GI275's instead but that would cost several thousand more.  Or you might be able to include electric trim for another $2500 or so.  Advertised as 1024lb useful load but I'd want to see the history of changes to the W&B sheets.  And if it's correct, the engine has been changed from an A3B6D to a dual magneto A3B6 engine which is a plus in my book.  That would make an upgrade to a SureFly electronic ignition possible when funds permit.

"In-flight Report: 'This Mooney flew great back Kokomo from South Dakota!  The engine ran very strong and trimmed out very well.  I do not have any complaints with this aircraft!'  Jon, Pilot"

Guys, my POH is missing the "engine trim" section.  Help!

[neilpilot]

5 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

Guys, my POH is missing the "engine trim" section.  Help!

Unfortunately you will need to ask Mooney for help.  I'm not sure your MSE is airworthy without a complete POH onboard. 

[Bob - S50]

15 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

"In-flight Report: 'This Mooney flew great back Kokomo from South Dakota!  The engine ran very strong and trimmed out very well.  I do not have any complaints with this aircraft!'  Jon, Pilot"

Guys, my POH is missing the "engine trim" section.  Help!

Ya, grammar and complete sentence construction is not always a given among aviators.  I suspect what Jon meant to say was, "The engine ran very strongLY and THE AIRCRAFT trimmed out very well."

Still looks like a pretty good value to me provided it doesn't have leaking tanks or corrosion and the W&B is accurate.

Edited September 15, 2020 by Bob - S50

[carusoam]

26 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

"In-flight Report: 'This Mooney flew great back Kokomo from South Dakota!  The engine ran very strong and trimmed out very well.  I do not have any complaints with this aircraft!'  Jon, Pilot"

Guys, my POH is missing the "engine trim" section.  Help!

See the POH for your mercury marine built engine...

Their mixture control knob is clearly marked - Trim +

Equally confusing to boaters... twist that knob all you want and the engine doesn’t move as expected...

PP thoughts only, not a boater...

Best regards,

-a-

[Missile=Awesome]

1 hour ago, Danb said:

Couldn’t agree more Paul if just one person who reads your response alters there thought process and decision making it’s worthwhile 

Feels like virtue signaling...No problem at ALL with post in the safety topic. What it comes out looking like in this thread is preaching at a guy that really clearly discussed his mission and wanted help finding a plane.  Everybody loves “their” plane so sells them on it.  Only natural.  What isn’t natural is acting like this guy is going to take risks...or assuming...or perhaps-ing when he is an experienced guy.  Just my perspective.  We have a safety thread that is UNDERUTILIZED.

[ZuluZulu]

2 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Ya, grammar and complete sentence construction is not always a given among aviators.  I suspect what Jon meant to say was, "The engine ran very strongLY and THE AIRCRAFT trimmed out very well."

Still looks like a pretty good value to me provided it doesn't have leaking tanks or corrosion and the W&B is accurate.

That's definitely what they meant, I'm just having a little fun.  I get a kick out of those cute little reports, since they're always glowing.

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

My point was about dispatchability, which is obviously an issue for the OP, and the likelihood of being pressured, into making a bad decision, however well thought through and intentioned.

This is the part I take issue with. Why should we assume the OP would ever "be pressured into making a bad decision"?

I know I don't like people assuming I'll be an idiot when faced with the decision either.

How about we assume the OP is trying to buy the airplane with the best dispatch capability that falls within his budget. Obviously there are even times the airlines cancel for weather. And whether he buys a turbo Mooney, an N/A Mooney, or a TBM... he'll use good judgement and cancel the flight when appropriate.

Let's not assume that pilots with a little, or a lot less, experience then us, will automatically make stupid/deadly decisions. 

[ArtVandelay]

That's definitely what they meant, I'm just having a little fun.  I get a kick out of those cute little reports, since they're always glowing.

Too glowing...

[kmyfm20s]

8 hours ago, kortopates said:

Although this discussion is a tangent to the OP and the point of this thread - but what thread in Mooneyspace ever sticks to the original point - I'll share my thoughts. I'll disagree that the turbo would not have made a difference, but I'll agree its was 110% due to poor ADM that was criminal in my opinion as well as being totally naive about the hazards. 

But if he had a turbo, he would not have had to stop his climb below the MEA and barely skirt over the terrain abeam the Wind RIvers Range highest peak just shy of 14K. His inability to climb higher above the terrain sealed their fate by exposing them to the downdrafts as they flew to the leeward side. The final report suggest the pilot stall-spinned the Mooney trying to maintain altitude and plummeted straight down several thousand feet. The pictures of the wreckage are very disturbing with the tail still pointed up.

But it was the rookie pilot's incredibly poor ADM that put himself in the position that killed him and his 3 boys.  Just a few of the highlights included his departure into mountainous terrain with widespread AIRMETs for icings; which he justified to his wife before departure by telling her since their were no PIREPs for icing on his route that the conditions didn't amount to "Known Icing"  - so he could depart! His acceptance of a direct clearance right over the highest terrain of the Wind River wilderness area, when he had a much safer cleared route directly south of Jackson Hole to clear the higher terrain - but instead delegated his PIC responsibility to the controller and turned direct right into the highest terrain knowing full well what the terrain looked like from his MX20 MFD in his panel painting the hazardous terrain. The controller was faulted for that as well. The craziest thing is as John said earlier above, the pilot just had to get home. He had already cancelled his trip home in the Mooney, because of the weather, and bought tickets on a commuter. But after they boarded their flight, it was canceled due to an equipment issue. The pilot then called the FBO and asked them to ready his J model for flight  and move it outside.  Shortly thereafter he filed his IFR flight plan to the north before going east and soon thereafter he was copying his clearance for an entirely different route to the south following a departure procedure he had not considered - which actually got him out of the higher terrain sooner.  

The pilot had just completed a 10 day accelerated IFR class a couple weeks prior just to be able to make this trip for a wedding or anniversary, despite his instructor highly advising against it. Completing his rating a couple weeks prior to the trip, he then practiced flying local approaches in poor IMC weather at minimums. He had clearly had no concept of personal minimums. 

Although a turbo could have made a big difference here, this accident really isn't about equipment as much as it is about a lesson in just how bad pilot ADM can get when get-home-itis becomes entirely consuming and all decision making is delegated to controllers.  

Sorry for the continued thread drift:) this why I try to read all topics on MS even if they don’t interest me because sometime some great discussion are with in them. I will make this short. We agree 99% with each other with exception that a 231(Turbo) would have had a better outcome. I will agree to disagree on this. When I read an accident report with the high mountain terrain, wings starting to ice(IMC), thin air that also affects the wings, severe mountain wave, all seats filled in the seats and probably baggage for all the passengers plus mom that went home commercial. I personally don’t think that turbo would have had a different outcome. My point is that a pilot like this would have been even more confident or over confident with a turbo and I believe have the same outcome.

BTW-sorry I missed you all at Catalina!

[Missile=Awesome]

AOPA did a fantastic video on this tragedy...Perhaps since many are very interested in the well being of the original posters ADM he should provide a sworn statement...preferably signed in blood that he won’t be “that guy”...and by God at least we know he is solo when he is doing the commute so only he will perish from his getthereitis. May ALL Mooneyspacer’s have mercy on his soul.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Missile=Awesome

[Willie]

52 minutes ago, Missile=Awesome said:

AOPA did a fantastic video on this tragedy...Perhaps since many are very interested in the well being of the original posters ADM he should provide a sworn statement...preferably signed in blood that he won’t be “that guy”...and by God at least we know he is solo when he is doing the commute so only he will perish from his getthereitis. May ALL Mooneyspacer’s have mercy on his soul.

That’s funny!

[Willie]

9 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

I think you would be happy with a J.  Looking at what's available on Controller, many of them cost more than you want to spend.  Some have horrible useful loads.  ALWAYS ask about the useful load.  I'm also not a fan of the '77 model because of the fuel selector location and the lever engine controls vs the push pull with vernier.  Of those available on the site today, I'd look at this one:

'78 J, $70k  That would leave you with $55,000 for upgrades.  Dual G5's and a 2 axis GFC500 autopilot should be less than $25,000.  Add a GTN650, PMA 7000BT audio panel, and GTX345 ADS-B IN/OUT and you should be pretty close to your budget with a well equipped airplane.  You might even be able to use dual GI275's instead but that would cost several thousand more.  Or you might be able to include electric trim for another $2500 or so.  Advertised as 1024lb useful load but I'd want to see the history of changes to the W&B sheets.  And if it's correct, the engine has been changed from an A3B6D to a dual magneto A3B6 engine which is a plus in my book.  That would make an upgrade to a SureFly electronic ignition possible when funds permit.

Forgot to include, you need to include a good engine monitor to the installation too.

 

Apparently Mooney’s are flying off the shelves. This J as well as the other 4 Mooney’s  they had for sale are all pending. All their planes were priced well so that makes sense.
 

The idea of buying something like that and doing the panel upgrade you mention is cool. However it does go against the traditional advice of not adding your own avionics. Maybe that advice is changing a bit with some of these more reasonably priced upgrades like the G5’s and GFC500.