well, I think I'm going to get some bladders.

[rbridges]

The weep in my right wing is getting worse.  I've actually got some bleed through the wing walk by the passenger door.  I'm also noticing some blue in the left wing.   I originally planned to have a strip/reseal, but the more I think about it, I may go with the bladders.  I'm already at a paltry 590lbs useable load with full fuel.  I guess another 30lbs won't make a difference b/c I'll probably never have rear passengers.

I spoke with someone at Cole Aviation in Rome, GA.  He really turned me off of a patch job.  He said it's a losing battle, and at $1K/attempt, I want something a little more dependable.

Anyone near north GA have much experience with these guys?

[Parker_Woodruff]

Bladders wear out, too.  Get it resealed by someone who has a good process.  Willmar, Don Maxwell, etc...

[gregwatts]

I agree that "patching" is a waste of time. I do think you should reconsider bladders.....they are not trouble free. Wilmar in MN or Wetwingologist in Ft Laud or any MSC can do a strip/reseal for about the same as what the bladders will cost installed. My opinion only!

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: gregwatts

I agree that "patching" is a waste of time.

[rbridges]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Bladders wear out, too.  Get it resealed by someone who has a good process.  Willmar, Don Maxwell, etc...

[jetdriven]

Our bladders are 19 years old and have had no work done to them. Another pilot on here has 20 year old bladders.  My doctor has a 1974 V-35B bonanza and finally had to have a bladder overhauled for a leak last year.  

In fact, I'd love to hear from ANYONE who has had any issues with the O&N bladders for a Mooney.  I sure hear about fuel leaks, and reseal and repatch jobs which forever need more work.  Just keeping it balanced.

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Bladders wear out, too.  Get it resealed by someone who has a good process.  Willmar, Don Maxwell, etc...

[jetdriven]

here is what another Moooney'er replied to when I asked him why he chose a reseal rather than putting bladders in his M20C.  I think he may be exaggerating on both ends, but,   comments?

 

Well, for me it was not $8000.  It was $6000.00.  Also, my own personal bladder will not let me fly as long as the fuel bladders would allow me to.  Plus, with a useful load of 1008 lbs.  I really cannot afford the loss of useful load that the bladders would cause.  According to the O&N website (Mooney Bladder manufacturer), the price does not include installation so the 64 gal option is $7750 and then you have to add 50 hours of labor according to their site and of course that is if all goes perfectly.  So lets say they charge $65.00 an hour you are now looking at over $10,000 (Quite a bit higher than the reseal).  I have a 5 year warranty and solid tanks for $6000 (this price included labor, materials, etc...).  All that made it an easy decision for me.

[John Pleisse]

RE: O&N .......I have been researching this for a while.... I have a hangar neighbor who paid a Mooney Service Center just under $16,000 parts and labor for a 64 gallon O&N bladder system in a legacy 201. In steep contrast, I got a direct install quote from O&N for a 64 gallon system.....$9850, parts, labor, test flight, STC, exclud. tax and ferry help (they have a ferry pilot on staff). Point being...O&N dealers need to be kept somewhat in line.

I have had minor patch jobs done by Freeway, Hagerstown, Weber and Lonestar...all great Mooney shops. They ranged in price (since 1998) from $500 to $1100. The latter patch was extensive and starbaord right in the exhaust flow, so it required full resolution. My tanks have never been resealed, ever, since 1979.

I have decided I will invest in a sure-resolution. O&N is 50 mins air time from my home base. One gentleman on Mooneyspace (can't rmember who, Hank, dan, Cruiser, Jim R...?) mentioned he put the screws to O&N and got his install done in 3 days. They told me two weeks. I will undoubtedly get bladders at my next weep.. Incidentally, I believe strongly in Willmar's process, but it is geographically undesireable.

[rbridges]

Quote: N4352H

RE: O&N .......I have been researching this for a while.... I have a hangar neighbor who paid a Mooney Service Center just under $16,000 parts and labor for a 64 gallon O&N bladder system in a legacy 201. In steep contrast, I got a direct install quote from O&N for a 64 gallon system.....$9850, parts, labor, test flight, STC, exclud. tax and ferry help (they have a ferry pilot on staff). Point being...O&N dealers need to be kept somewhat in line.

I have had minor patch jobs done by Freeway, Hagerstown, Weber and Lonestar...all great Mooney shops. They ranged in price (since 1998) from $500 to $1100. The latter patch was extensive and starbaord right in the exhaust flow, so it required full resolution. My tanks have never been resealed, ever, since 1979.

I have decided I will invest in a sure-resolution. O&N is 50 mins air time from my home base. One gentleman on Mooneyspace (can't rmember who, Hank, dan, Cruiser, Jim R...?) mentioned he put the screws to O&N and got his install done in 3 days. They told me two weeks. I will undoubtedly get bladders at my next weep.. Incidentally, I believe strongly in Willmar's process, but it is geographically undesireable.

[Seth]

I know I've stated this before, but from experience in my former 1967 F model, I never had issues with the bladders that were between 15 and 20 years old.  If that is the direction you are taking, it is a fine move.  That being said, my new Missile with the extended range tanks can only be resealed if I want to continue to use those extended tanks, so Wilmar will be in the future, I just hope not for 10+ years (though realistically, it will be in the next 10 years sometime).

[John Pleisse]

Quote: rbridges

 Cole is quoting $10K.  I kinda clutched my chest b/c I was expecting around 8.  My same thoughts about Wilmar.

[John Pleisse]

One other thing...my fuel caps and the inner skin at the fuel receptacle have really taken a beating over the years. There have been rust repairs and repaint around the fuel cap inlets. The newer flush mount fuel caps with the O&N mod are very heavy duty and are aesthetically appealing. In the end, solving the fuel cap-receptacle maintenance problem too. And perhaps the O-ring AD.

[jetdriven]

Obviously goes without saying, if you want Monroy extended range tanks, or have a Rocket with extended tanks,  a factory 201 with extended tanks (201ER?), or a long-body Mooney, bladders will not work for you. These are strictly a 64 gallon option.

Of course, the 54 gallons baldders and LOP is equivalent to 64 gallons and ROP, but this is another subject.    I just had to say it. 

 

I do miss the 10 gallons. We can still go ~650-700 NM in still air.  A few more if willing to fly at Carson speed.

 

[N601RX]

Quote: rbridges

The weep in my right wing is getting worse.  I've actually got some bleed through the wing walk by the passenger door.  I'm also noticing some blue in the left wing.   I originally planned to have a strip/reseal, but the more I think about it, I may go with the bladders.  I'm already at a paltry 590lbs useable load with full fuel.  I guess another 30lbs won't make a difference b/c I'll probably never have rear passengers.

I spoke with someone at Cole Aviation in Rome, GA.  He really turned me off of a patch job.  He said it's a losing battle, and at $1K/attempt, I want something a little more dependable.

Anyone near north GA have much experience with these guys?

[Shadrach]

Quote: gregwatts

I agree that "patching" is a waste of time. I do think you should reconsider bladders.....they are not trouble free. Wilmar in MN or Wetwingologist in Ft Laud or any MSC can do a strip/reseal for about the same as what the bladders will cost installed. My opinion only!

[rbridges]

Quote: N601RX

 I've spoken with Cole on the phone a few times and thought Joey was very straight foward and gave good advice.  On the Bladders I would also get O&N to quote the install also.  That way if anything goes wrong there is no pointing fingers.

[jetdriven]

Never in the history of mankind has a group of individuals made more fuss over 33 lbs (bladders)  or 12 knots (M20F vs. J)

[rbridges]

Quote: jetdriven

Never in the history of mankind has a group of individuals made more fuss over 33 lbs (bladders)  or 12 knots (M20F vs. J)

[PTK]

Frankly, some things are best left to professionals. The factory didn't use bladders for some very good reasons. It is not the correct way to solve the problem. It's merely a half ass way to avoid or bypass a professional strip and or reseal. Tank strip and reseal is highly specialized and delicate work that demands certain skills and attention to detail. I would go to a professional who can do it right and be done with it.  It would be to your benefit to get a couple more opinions and references from professionals who actually specialize on this. Not a plain A&P. If you need a knee replacement you go to a knee replacement specialist and not a general practitioner right? Same logic should apply here imo.

Consider the fact that with sealed tanks a leak will start as a very small seap which gives ample time to evaluate and address. A bladder can burst or a connection can come loose spilling all the fuel at once.

[Guest]

[gregwatts]

Quote: Shadrach

Agree and disagree. Patch jobs can be a challenge and don't always yield perfect results. I speak from personal experience. I was ready to do a complete strip and reseal in late 2009 on my bird's 43 yr old tanks. After getting inside and seeing the condition of the material, we elected to patch (using the Maxwell vacuum method of detecting leaks) instead. We missed a few areas. The left tank now has one rivet that weeps (barely). The right is much better, but has one area at the tank wall just below the sending unit that leaks when full. The fuel travels down the outside of the spar, but again is just a seep. When I've time, I'll go back after them.

As a first time tank patcher, I think it worked out satisfactorily. My IA did tanks on C130s while in the service and was able to offer some assistance, but I did the leak test and the patch work.

[jlunseth]

I definitely would not patch, because the people who do patching will not guarantee their work.  So you patch, two months later it is leaking, you patch again, and on and on.  It is all at your expense.  I had Willmar do mine a year and a half ago and have had no complaints.  The work is warranted, if I recall correctly the warranty is three years.  Two tanks was $8,900 I believe.

Their process involved chemically removing all the old sealant, and then completely (and correctly) resealing the tanks.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

Bladders wear out, too.  Get it resealed by someone who has a good process.  Willmar, Don Maxwell, etc...

[WardHolbrook]

I have two issues with bladders. First is the increased weight which equates to 30+ minutes fuel and second, you really should keep them topped off with fuel to minimize the problems with them drying out over time. I fuel for the trip and seldom, if ever, top the tanks off as a matter of course, after a flight - it facilitates loading and fueling for the next flight. Long-term, sealed wet-wings are better for than that than bladders.

[GeorgePerry]

Quote: WardHolbrook

I have two issues with bladders. First is the increased weight which equates to 30+ minutes fuel and second, you really should keep them topped off with fuel to minimize the problems with them drying out over time. I fuel for the trip and seldom, if ever, top the tanks off as a matter of course, after a flight - it facilitates loading and fueling for the next flight. Long-term, sealed wet-wings are better for than than bladders.