GI275 for KI256 but not HSI

[Seth]

Gang-

I went ahead and created a separate thread as to avoid thread creep from the other GI275 thread

Quick question - from a dollar saving stand point. Is it possible to replace the KI256 to drive a KFC200 without replacing the KI525 HSI? 

I would still install a separate electric powered second Attitdue Indicator (either a lifesaver taken from another panel upgrade or another less expensive option out there) to backup the KI525.

1. Is this possible

2. Would I still have GPSS?

Down the line I'm thinking of a G3X or a G500 TXI depending on which way I go with future AutoPilot - if my KFC200 presents problems, replace sooner with a G500. If it is fine, keep it.

But for now to get rid of the vacuum system, standby vac, save weight there, and get a better more modern instrument than the KI256, I could replace it with just 1 GI275.

The GI275 would again become the backup in my new system.

 

Separately, the GI275, could still drive the KFC200 should I decide to go G3X as my big screen in the future (just thinking about it).

 

Anyway, let me know your thoughts of why that's a NO GO, or if that does actually make sense.

I have a Garmin 430W, a GTX345, and an Aera660 panel mounted. I'll likely send the 430W in for a flat repair while I still can to have everything refreshed prior to installing a GTN 750xi or whatever comes next way down the line.

I fly with the GFC 700 AP in a different airframes I fly for charter and LOVE it. But the KFC200 is trucking along so I do not plan to pull it out right now. If and when it breaks way in the future, I"ll either grab a working part from someone who did an upgrade to keep it going or at that point pull it for the GFC500. The GI275 drives both the KFC200 and the GFC500, so that will replace the KI256, but again, does the HSI, the 525, have to be replaced or can that stay for now?

Thanks,

-Seth

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Seth

[aviatoreb]

17 minutes ago, Seth said:

Gang-

I went ahead and created a separate thread as to avoid thread creep from the other GI275 thread

Quick question - from a dollar saving stand point. Is it possible to replace the KI256 to drive a KFC200 without replacing the KI525 HSI? 

I would still install a separate electric powered second Attitdue Indicator (either a lifesaver taken from another panel upgrade or another less expensive option out there) to backup the KI525.

1. Is this possible

2. Would I still have GPSS?

Down the line I'm thinking of a G3X or a G500 TXI depending on which way I go with future AutoPilot - if my KFC200 presents problems, replace sooner with a G500. If it is fine, keep it.

But for now to get rid of the vacuum system, standby vac, save weight there, and get a better more modern instrument than the KI256, I could replace it with just 1 GI275.

The GI275 would again become the backup in my new system.

 

Separately, the GI275, could still drive the KFC200 should I decide to go G3X as my big screen in the future (just thinking about it).

 

Anyway, let me know your thoughts of why that's a NO GO, or if that does actually make sense.

I have a Garmin 430W, a GTX345, and an Aera660 panel mounted. I'll likely send the 430W in for a flat repair while I still can to have everything refreshed prior to installing a GTN 750xi or whatever comes next way down the line.

I fly with the GFC 700 AP in a different airframes I fly for charter and LOVE it. But the KFC200 is trucking along so I do not plan to pull it out right now. If and when it breaks way in the future, I"ll either grab a working part from someone who did an upgrade to keep it going or at that point pull it for the GFC500. The GI275 drives both the KFC200 and the GFC500, so that will replace the KI256, but again, does the HSI, the 525, have to be replaced or can that stay for now?

Thanks,

-Seth

 

 

I am one step ahead of you in research.  You are allowed to replace just the one KI256 with one GI256 and retain your KI525.  But I am not going to do that.  I already have a mechanical electric gyro which I will retain but I don't think that is necessary since with two GI256 one is allowed to use the second as revisionary mode.

I don't know what is the rule regarding required backup for the GI256 but it is strange if it would require more than just one GI256 since one is allowed to fly the airplane with just one KI256 and that's it - as crazy as that is - 

If it were me - and I were wanting to do as you to replace the KI256 with a GI256 - for the time being and then see what you want to do - I would not spend further money then and I would not remove the vacuum system yet - I would keep the working KI256 but now simply as a backup and move it over somewhere out of the way purely as an attitude indicator not driving your AP.  I think that is allowed.

I will remove my backup vacuum but not my primary vacuum since I still have vacuum driven speed breaks.

I really like the idea of incremental upgrade and as you - I am happy to keep trucking with my solid KFC200 for now.

[Seth]

Erik-

You have done more research! Thank you. The reversionary aspect is huge. Especially if I'm going to spend money to install a used lifesaver or other electric attitude indicator. Instead, if I put that install money toward replacing the King 525 HSI as well, there's less overall work in the panel, and I can still then remove my vacum system.

As my KI256 is working, I'd sell it as a working unit. I also have a needs to be overhauled KI256 sitting on the shelf which was wandering a bit when I pulled it and installed this unit. Between those three units - the Working KI256, needs to be overhauled KI256, and workign K525, that will help somewhat with the cost of purchasing and installing two GI275's and not installing something else. 

If and when I upgrade to a G3X or 500txi, the second GI275 could alway go to the right side of the cockpit for whoever is flying right seat as well, become another MFD, etc.

So the question then becomes, what is the deal for two GI275's vs 1 and when will Garmin run another $1000 off second until something deal. LIkely Oshkosh 2021 (if it happens).

I do not have speed brakes nor will I install them, so I will pull the vacuum system and standby vacuum as part of this process. I'll get some UL back likely netting me over 1100 lbs. After the changes I'll fully announce in Q3, I'll be close to 1100 if not a few pounds away soon. Also, that means during annual inspections, I won't have to have the standby check completed anymore which lowers the annual expenses a little bit.

Do you get GPSS if you only replace the KI256?

-Seth

Edited August 17, 2020 by Seth

[Seth]

New questions: 

Will the GI275 show the flight director for a KFC200?

-Seth

[MIm20c]

3 minutes ago, Seth said:

New questions: 

Will the GI275 show the flight director for a KFC200?

-Seth

AP compatibility

[Seth]

Thank you!

KAP = no FD

KFC = Yes FD

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, Seth said:

Erik-

You have done more research! Thank you. The reversionary aspect is huge. Especially if I'm going to spend money to install a used lifesaver or other electric attitude indicator. Instead, if I put that install money toward replacing the King 525 HSI as well, there's less overall work in the panel, and I can still then remove my vacum system.

As my KI256 is working, I'd sell it as a working unit. I also have a needs to be overhauled KI256 sitting on the shelf which was wandering a bit when I pulled it and installed this unit. Between those three units - the Working KI256, needs to be overhauled KI256, and workign K525, that will help somewhat with the cost of purchasing and installing two GI275's and not installing something else. 

If and when I upgrade to a G3X or 500txi, the second GI275 could alway go to the right side of the cockpit for whoever is flying right seat as well, become another MFD, etc.

So the question then becomes, what is the deal for two GI275's vs 1 and when will Garmin run another $1000 off second until something deal. LIkely Oshkosh 2021 (if it happens).

I do not have speed brakes nor will I install them, so I will pull the vacuum system and standby vacuum as part of this process. I'll get some UL back likely netting me over 1100 lbs. After the changes I'll fully announce in Q3, I'll be close to 1100 if not a few pounds away soon. Also, that means during annual inspections, I won't have to have the standby check completed anymore which lowers the annual expenses a little bit.

Do you get GPSS if you only replace the KI256?

-Seth

I think you do - but I do not know for sure - that you get GPSS even with a single GI275.

But I will go with dual.

Besides revisionary mode - they back each other up - you can actually remove your entire six pack now if that is what you want.  But I won't do that - it would be ugly.

And I am keeping my electric mechanical backup attitude indicator as well.

[Ragsf15e]

4 hours ago, Seth said:

Gang-

I went ahead and created a separate thread as to avoid thread creep from the other GI275 thread

Quick question - from a dollar saving stand point. Is it possible to replace the KI256 to drive a KFC200 without replacing the KI525 HSI? 

I would still install a separate electric powered second Attitdue Indicator (either a lifesaver taken from another panel upgrade or another less expensive option out there) to backup the KI525.

1. Is this possible

2. Would I still have GPSS?

Down the line I'm thinking of a G3X or a G500 TXI depending on which way I go with future AutoPilot - if my KFC200 presents problems, replace sooner with a G500. If it is fine, keep it.

But for now to get rid of the vacuum system, standby vac, save weight there, and get a better more modern instrument than the KI256, I could replace it with just 1 GI275.

The GI275 would again become the backup in my new system.

 

Separately, the GI275, could still drive the KFC200 should I decide to go G3X as my big screen in the future (just thinking about it).

 

Anyway, let me know your thoughts of why that's a NO GO, or if that does actually make sense.

I have a Garmin 430W, a GTX345, and an Aera660 panel mounted. I'll likely send the 430W in for a flat repair while I still can to have everything refreshed prior to installing a GTN 750xi or whatever comes next way down the line.

I fly with the GFC 700 AP in a different airframes I fly for charter and LOVE it. But the KFC200 is trucking along so I do not plan to pull it out right now. If and when it breaks way in the future, I"ll either grab a working part from someone who did an upgrade to keep it going or at that point pull it for the GFC500. The GI275 drives both the KFC200 and the GFC500, so that will replace the KI256, but again, does the HSI, the 525, have to be replaced or can that stay for now?

Thanks,

-Seth

 

 

You got me on the other thread too...

why not just do one gi-275 for now?  No need to back it up more than your old adi? 2 is nice, but I don’t think it’s required.

just an option.

[Seth]

I've learned 2 are not required.

So I'll likely just go with the single GI275 unless my HSI quits, and I'll leave my KI525A as it sits.

However, the question is still can a single GI275 emulate GPSS or do you need a second GI275 for that (which does indeed emulate GPSS?).

Thanks,

-Seth

[jetdriven]

I think you have to have a HSI 275 for GPSS. I think Garmin calls it heading emulation. 

[MIm20c]

GPSS is pretty nice...might as well toss a couple in. I feel the 275 on the used market will hold its value well if you want to upgrade to a big screen.  

[tmo]

Will Garmin allow you to sell it (well, the buyer to legally install), or just leave with the dealer when you upgrade?

[Seth]

So new twist . . . I'm in the process of acquiring an excellent condition used Mid Continent lifesaver electric gyro with battery backup.

This will go in my turn and bank indicator position for now. With all the other upgrades to my airplane recently (another thread about to be posted), I'm holding off on the GI275 for now.

The lifesaver will serve as my panel backup to my KI256 and vacuum pump.

However, should the KI256 go or the vacuum pump go, I'll install a single GI275 to drive the King AP and also so I can remove my vacuum pump and standby vac system.

The question still remains, with a single GI275 and my then lifesaver mid-continent in the panel, I don't need dual GI275's. 

What I do want is GPSS. So, is there a unit that is less that an GI275 that can either be the HSI or allow the king 525 HSI to have GPSS steering send to the GI275.

Of course, I'll weight the cost of adding all that other stuff and install vs the second GI275 (and then selling maybe selling the Mid-Continent).

If I can make it work with one GI275 and something inexpensive that will drive GPSS, then I'll be fine with a single GI275 and the lifesaver. This also will allow me to at some point upgrade to a GX3 or G500TXI depending on how the King AP is doing years down the line. The GI275 would then serve as the backup. Likely, it would be when the AP gets to the point of big dollars, I'd replace with a GNC500 and the GX3 would be installed. Or just the AP first as the GI275 can drive it.

So . . . again . . . what is the most inexpensive way to drive GPSS to the GI275 without a second GI275 as I'll have the mid continent lifesaver already installed in the aircraft as a backup gyro.

Thanks!

-Seth

[carusoam]

A separate GPSS box is not all that expensive...

Many are being thrown to the curb while other displays are getting updated...

Best regards,

-a-

[Seth]

On 2/25/2021 at 9:34 PM, carusoam said:

A separate GPSS box is not all that expensive...

Many are being thrown to the curb while other displays are getting updated...

Best regards,

-a-

That's kind of what I'm thinking. A good lightly used GPSS box that will work with the 525A and GI275. 

But, if the cost starts creeping up and gets close, then dual GI275. 

What does a used GPSS box go for these days? I just don't know.

-Seth

Edited March 3, 2021 by Seth

[hypertech]

If you want GPSS today and you plan garmin in the future, the G5 HSI with a 29B is probably your most bang for the buck.  The only scenario where you need a 275 is the one where your 256 kicks the bucket and you don't want to do any other upgrades.  If you are going to update the autopilot, it can be driven by a G5 or a G3x.  If the autopilot kicks it, and you don't want to do the G3x, then you get one more G5 and the GFC500 and ditch the vacuum system.  If the autopilot kicks it and you do want the G3x (or G500), then the G5 HSI slides over to be the backup and you ditch the vacuum system.

[Seth]

48 minutes ago, hypertech said:

If you want GPSS today and you plan garmin in the future, the G5 HSI with a 29B is probably your most bang for the buck.  The only scenario where you need a 275 is the one where your 256 kicks the bucket and you don't want to do any other upgrades.  If you are going to update the autopilot, it can be driven by a G5 or a G3x.  If the autopilot kicks it, and you don't want to do the G3x, then you get one more G5 and the GFC500 and ditch the vacuum system.  If the autopilot kicks it and you do want the G3x (or G500), then the G5 HSI slides over to be the backup and you ditch the vacuum system.

Good point to all of this - Thank you. However the idea is to go the GI275 route first. My HSI is fine right now and is electrically powered. The idea is to get off the vacuum pump system. I've already replaced my KI256A once. I have 300 hours until the vacuum pump hits 1000 hours. Thus, I'm 300 from doing smart maintenance. However, I can instead go on condition and let it keep running since I'm installing the lifesaver - but that's not what I'm going to do. I'm going to install the lifesaver to have a real backup. Then in 2022 or 2023 I'll do the GI 275 and remove the vacuum pump and backup vacuum system. Synthetic vision, driving the king AP, and I just really like the GI275 over the G5. I don't want both a GI275 and G5 in the cockpit - I don't think it will look right with one over the other. However, I'm open to the idea and will research it more however. That may be the best way to go. Replace the HSI with a G5 HSI vs install a separate GPSS box. I'll have to take a look at pricing.

If I go GPSS box with the GI275 would be the backup to a potential future G3X or G500TXI depending on what I end up doing with my autopilot over time. I love the GFC700 in new G1000 aircraft I fly so I'm leaning toward a GFC500 at some point when my King KFC200 requires more work than needed to get it going again, but it's good for right now (and hopefully for a long time!).

What is the approximate pricing for G5 HSI and 29B installed?

Please keep the suggestions coming!

-Seth

Edited March 3, 2021 by Seth

[flyboy0681]

1 hour ago, Seth said:

Good point to all of this - Thank you. However the idea is to go the GI275 route first.

 

Best part of the -275 is the ability to get wind speed and direction. This feeds into the Navigator to display the crab angle.

 

[hypertech]

I had dual G5s and the GFC500 autopilot installed and it wasn't much more than two GI-275s and keeping the old autopilot.  I've seen numbers around $15k for a dual GI-275 install.  A G5 HSI with 29B is about $3k worth of hardware and figure probably another $3k for install. 

You need the temp widget for winds and TAS I think either way.  I have it and get both on the G5s.  The path you propose will take longer and cost you more in the end.  I have a whole KFC-225 system in a box including the KI-256 if you need any pieces to support this upgrade plan. 

[ZuluZulu]

1 hour ago, flyboy0681 said:

Best part of the -275 is the ability to get wind speed and direction. This feeds into the Navigator to display the crab angle.

 

The G5 HSI can also do this with an OAT sensor.

[Will.iam]

Im in this same boat with wanting to know if the single gi275 can gpss a KFC-150.  Thanks for starting this thread.  I also noticed that the G500TXI can drive the KFC-150 autopilot as shown below to even include / support altitude preselect and capture which I already have in the KFC-150 if I understand the chart correctly: 

Autopilot - HSI Output	Bendix	M4C, M4D
	Century	II/III IV 21/31/41 2000
	Cessna	400B 300 IFCS/400 IFCS/800 IFCS 300B IFCS/400B IFCS/800B IFCS 1000A IFCS
	Collins	APS-65 ( ) AP-106/107
	Honeywell (Bendix King)	KAP 100/150/200 KFC 150/200/250 KAP 140 KFC 225/275/325 KFC 300
	Sperry	SPZ-200A/500
	S-TEC	20/30/40/50/55/60-1/60-2/65 60 PSS 55X 1500/2100
Autopilot - Altitude Preselect/Vertical Speed Select via GAD 43e	Cessna	300B IFCS, 400B IFCS, 800B IFCS, 1000A IFCS
	Collins	APS-65 ( )
	Honeywell (Bendix King)	KAP 150 KFC 150 KFC 200/250 KFC 275/325
	S-TEC	55, 55X, 60-2, 65, 60PSS

 

but I can't seem to find out if the G3X can with an adaptor or not.  Anybody know?

the G3X only shows this:

Autopilots

Garmin

GFC 500

Century¹

1C388 (M, C, MC, -2, -3)

2000

21

31

41

IV

Cessna¹

300(B) IFCS

400(B) IFCS

800(B) IFCS

Honeywell /

Bendix King¹

KAP 100/140/150/200

KFC 150/200/225

S-TEC¹

System 20/30/40/50/55/55X/60/65

Piper¹

Autocontrol III/IIIB

Altimatic III/IIIB-1/IIIC

 

With the 1 note being it doesn't show FD bars on KFC-150.  Doesn't say anything about altitude preselect or capture.

 

 

 

[jetdriven]

On 3/3/2021 at 12:38 PM, flyboy0681 said:

Best part of the -275 is the ability to get wind speed and direction. This feeds into the Navigator to display the crab angle.

 

The crab angle displayed on the GTN screen is the function of the difference between ground track and heading supply to the navigator by the unit. My Sandel SNN3308 does it too.   But winds aloft are nice.

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Im in this same boat with wanting to know if the single gi275 can gpss a KFC-150.  Thanks for starting this thread.  I also noticed that the G500TXI can drive the KFC-150 autopilot as shown below to even include / support altitude preselect and capture which I already have in the KFC-150 if I understand the chart correctly: 

Autopilot - HSI Output	Bendix	M4C, M4D
	Century	II/III IV 21/31/41 2000
	Cessna	400B 300 IFCS/400 IFCS/800 IFCS 300B IFCS/400B IFCS/800B IFCS 1000A IFCS
	Collins	APS-65 ( ) AP-106/107
	Honeywell (Bendix King)	KAP 100/150/200 KFC 150/200/250 KAP 140 KFC 225/275/325 KFC 300
	Sperry	SPZ-200A/500
	S-TEC	20/30/40/50/55/60-1/60-2/65 60 PSS 55X 1500/2100
Autopilot - Altitude Preselect/Vertical Speed Select via GAD 43e	Cessna	300B IFCS, 400B IFCS, 800B IFCS, 1000A IFCS
	Collins	APS-65 ( )
	Honeywell (Bendix King)	KAP 150 KFC 150 KFC 200/250 KFC 275/325
	S-TEC	55, 55X, 60-2, 65, 60PSS

 

but I can't seem to find out if the G3X can with an adaptor or not.  Anybody know?

the G3X only shows this:

Autopilots

Garmin

GFC 500

Century¹

1C388 (M, C, MC, -2, -3)

2000

21

31

41

IV

Cessna¹

300(B) IFCS

400(B) IFCS

800(B) IFCS

Honeywell /

Bendix King¹

KAP 100/140/150/200

KFC 150/200/225

S-TEC¹

System 20/30/40/50/55/55X/60/65

Piper¹

Autocontrol III/IIIB

Altimatic III/IIIB-1/IIIC

 

With the 1 note being it doesn't show FD bars on KFC-150.  Doesn't say anything about altitude preselect or capture.

 

 

 

My friend has a KFC 150 with 2-275s and it does altitude preselect and capture. It also has the flight Director. If you're trying to do GPSS with the KFC 150 that comes from the HSI version, while you will either have to get another one for your attitude or use the mechanical attitude.

[Will.iam]

thanks

 

[Aerodon]

On 3/3/2021 at 9:33 AM, Seth said:

That's kind of what I'm thinking. A good lightly used GPSS box that will work with the 525A and GI275. 

But, if the cost starts creeping up and gets close, then dual GI275. 

What does a used GPSS box go for these days? I just don't know.

-Seth

Seth,

I had the opportunity to look at the GI-275 manual today.  It does show the 'Heading' wiring from the 'ADI' to the KFC 200 autopilot, so it seems possible that the ADI version would output a GPSS heading signal to the autopilot.  But I do not know if you are able to set a Hdg Bug on the ADI version?  (The GPSS Hdg Bug does not need setting).

I think it might be possible to install a simple switch between your KI525 'Heading' and GI-275 ADI 'GPSS Heading'.  In the up position, the KFC gets a GPSS hDG from the GI-275 ADI.  In the down position, it gets HDG from the KI-525.  No aftermarket GPSS module required.

Worth pursuing with a knowledgable installer.

An aftermarket GPSS box switches between the KI525 HDG and a GPS derived HDG from the GPS - no GI 275 needed.

Aerodon