Family - not interested in flying

[Wildstreak]

On 8/12/2020 at 6:03 PM, Fred as in Flintstone said:

So....

First post here. A little background. Mid 50's. Always dreamed of flying, finally took the plunge three years ago. Working on commercial / instrument now with rentals. When I first started the private, my wife was also interested / on board and we were going to do it together. Well, she had a bad experience with motion sickness on a very hot Arizona afternoon in an Archer where the CFI was demonstrating inherent stability. Since that time I have not been able to get her in a plane. Period.

In fact, it's become even worse than that. She is now convinced that flying is super dangerous. Sends me links to fatal GA plane crashes. Doesn't like how much it costs or the time that it takes. I think some of it is that I'm a low time pilot (200hrs) and not sure she "trusts" me. 

Unfortunately, I'm the opposite. I'm 100% in. It is a passion. I want to fly more. I'd love to fly places. I want to live the pilot life. But I can't get her to budge. And interestingly enough, none of the family are really interested in flying with me. I do have extended family that would fly everyday with me (brother, brother in law, sister, nephews) but not my kids. 

Just looking to see how many other people struggle with the same thing. How do you deal with a non-flying family when you want to do it all the time? Want to buy a plane (really want to buy a short body Mooney). 

There have to be others out there dealing with this. 

Flintstone, I sympathise with you. I was passionate about learning to fly from childhood. in 1993 I got my PPL and soon after I married a woman who was very afraid so that was an end to my flying.  I am now married to a different woman who found out a few years after marriage that I had learned to fly previously so she bought me a surprise trial lesson in 2019................ since then the addiction has come back full force and I'm now working finalising my IR.

I am not in any way suggesting divorce is a solution, I can say however that now in my mid 50's also, I hold a deep sadness that I spent 26 years of my life not flying. In reality I believe I may have 15 years available to me before I'm too old for flying and am very keen to make the most out of that. One of my two kids from my first marriage came flying once with me, he told my daughter "you wouldn't like it" and he has not flown again with me, I know I have to respect this and last thing I want is a passenger going through turmoil but I am quite gutted!

Its not easy but if there is a way of at least communicating what flying means to you and at our age, if there is passion ignited for the next 15 years ..... you probably deserve it, and your family will experience a much better version of you as a person during that time.

You could also temporarily take up cycling, wear super tight spandex (no matter what body shape), an overly wind dynamic luminous helmet, transformer sun glasses and clickety cycle shoes then accompany her everywhere....supermarket, BBQs, family gatherings etc,  soon you will be encouraged to buy that Mooney!!

I guess I'm just saying do anything you can to avoid such regrets as I have.

[PTK]

On 8/14/2020 at 11:14 AM, Fred as in Flintstone said:

It's not a matter of disregarding her reasonable fears or concerns, though they are overstated. It's not trivializing them. I'm not trying to force her into a plane. I have stopped asking her to fly with me. 

Your opinions are different from hers. She doesn't think her fears and concerns are overstated. You say they are overstated but she may feel you are overly trivializing and downplaying them. You are forcing her to accept a dangerous activity and she can't.

On 8/14/2020 at 11:52 AM, Fred as in Flintstone said:

I'd be content flying by myself. And the motion sickness thing is real. I get that. I'm not interested in having her miserable.

But right now, it's antagonistic about even me just flying. 

Persisting to ignore her feelings will only make things worse and you will drift apart. She is unhappy and miserable with this situation. If you feel she is holding you back from doing what you enjoy and is the source of her antagonism towards you, it's time for a very serious discussion with your wife. Feeling this way does not make for a healthy marriage. You need to decide what you treasure most: your wife and marriage or flying around. It doesn't appear you can have both. And that's ok but you can't blame her and she shouldn't blame you. But she is being more than reasonable. If I I'm reading your post correctly you decided to take up flying one day, she went along with an open mind and concluded that it's not for her. Now you find yourselves in a dilemma that you caused by your decision, not she. Time for a heart to heart discussion with your wife.

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, Wildstreak said:

You could also temporarily take up cycling, wear super tight spandex (no matter what body shape), an overly wind dynamic luminous helmet, transformer sun glasses and clickety cycle shoes then accompany her everywhere....supermarket, BBQs, family gatherings etc,  soon you will be encouraged to buy that Mooney!!

I can speak to that image.  That's me.  I have been cycling since high school - almost every day - exactly the image you just described.  Silly looking grown men in spandex and plastic shoes and silly helmets click clacking around in the supermarket in plastic shoes (although often I would love the shoes outside and walk around in the supermarket in my socks).

I studied the actuarial tables a number of years ago. SO just from a statistical standpoint.  GA flying is comparable to but worse than cycling (if I remember right), and both are worse than canoe'ing, from a chance of death due to 100,000 hrs of exposure.  Also, hunting and snowmobiles (two other popular activities around here) are also comparable and a little worse.  Hunting seems serene and lovely walking around in the woods and looking for a lovely doe on an autumn day dressed in camo but hunters have a bad habit of accidentally shooting each other.  Canoes seem lovely but people have a bad habit of drinking and falling over board.  Bicycles  seem lovely until the cars get involved in the story.  Just speaking from a statistical stand point.

I guess this makes me a two time risk taker being I bike every day and I have an airplane.

Oh - and another serene activity - fishing.  My oldest son is a big time fly fisherman.  What could be more serene than that?  I go with him sometimes, but he goes literally every day when possible.  He is home for the summer due to finishing school and looking for a job in a bad economy - the fly fishing around here is wonderful and epic.  he goes every day,  Fly fishing involves standing in moving water with waters and walking around looking for fishing holes,  There is actually again a quite nontrivial danger of drowning.  Sometimes he often goes alone and I do worry about him.  But I encourage him to do this its what he loves.  He studied water policy and plans a career in water policy helping to manage the world's water resource - this is his passion.

So let's not quit flying and take up cycling because we think cycling will be safer. It is quit definitely not safer.  Let's take up cycling because it is lovely and we love it and it does have health benefits, acute danger of injury and death aside...

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Amelia]

Only 15 years, Wildstreak? That is sad. (I bought my pretty M20S/R a few years ago as a 70th birthday present to me, after a year of sensibly doing without, and grinding my teeth at insulting airline absurdities.) And count my many blessings every time my excellent and unflappable spouse fastens his seatbelt beside me, headed to see distant grandchildren, grand sights on the other side of this vast continent, or just a grand $200 hamburger on a pretty day. Someday I will be too old, but not yet, I hope. I look at my friend, Bob, still flying his friends into the Idaho wilderness for breakfast. He is over 85, and his shiny Cessna 182B is also a bit long in the tooth, but to watch him settle onto a deep mountain canyon goat track, many miles from the nearest road head, smooth as you please, gives me great comfort for my own future. 

[MooneyMitch]

2 hours ago, Amelia said:

Only 15 years, Wildstreak? That is sad. (I bought my pretty M20S/R a few years ago as a 70th birthday present to me, after a year of sensibly doing without, and grinding my teeth at insulting airline absurdities.) And count my many blessings every time my excellent and unflappable spouse fastens his seatbelt beside me, headed to see distant grandchildren, grand sights on the other side of this vast continent, or just a grand $200 hamburger on a pretty day. Someday I will be too old, but not yet, I hope. I look at my friend, Bob, still flying his friends into the Idaho wilderness for breakfast. He is over 85, and his shiny Cessna 182B is also a bit long in the tooth, but to watch him settle onto a deep mountain canyon goat track, many miles from the nearest road head, smooth as you please, gives me great comfort for my own future. 

Absolutely!! Enjoy each moment as they will not last forever!  Congratulations!!

[Missile=Awesome]

9 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

I can speak to that image.  That's me.  I have been cycling since high school - almost every day - exactly the image you just described.  Silly looking grown men in spandex and plastic shoes and silly helmets click clacking around in the supermarket in plastic shoes (although often I would love the shoes outside and walk around in the supermarket in my socks).

I studied the actuarial tables a number of years ago. SO just from a statistical standpoint.  GA flying is comparable to but worse than cycling (if I remember right), and both are worse than canoe'ing, from a chance of death due to 100,000 hrs of exposure.  Also, hunting and snowmobiles (two other popular activities around here) are also comparable and a little worse.  Hunting seems serene and lovely walking around in the woods and looking for a lovely doe on an autumn day dressed in camo but hunters have a bad habit of accidentally shooting each other.  Canoes seem lovely but people have a bad habit of drinking and falling over board.  Bicycles  seem lovely until the cars get involved in the story.  Just speaking from a statistical stand point.

I guess this makes me a two time risk taker being I bike every day and I have an airplane.

Oh - and another serene activity - fishing.  My oldest son is a big time fly fisherman.  What could be more serene than that?  I go with him sometimes, but he goes literally every day when possible.  He is home for the summer due to finishing school and looking for a job in a bad economy - the fly fishing around here is wonderful and epic.  he goes every day,  Fly fishing involves standing in moving water with waters and walking around looking for fishing holes,  There is actually again a quite nontrivial danger of drowning.  Sometimes he often goes alone and I do worry about him.  But I encourage him to do this its what he loves.  He studied water policy and plans a career in water policy helping to manage the world's water resource - this is his passion.

So let's not quit flying and take up cycling because we think cycling will be safer. It is quit definitely not safer.  Let's take up cycling because it is lovely and we love it and it does have health benefits, acute danger of injury and death aside...

 

Not ALL bikers/hunters/pilots/snowmobiles etc have the same risk exposure through the activity statistically speaking, but you can do or not do things that mitigate risk.  My wife and I were biking while Up North last weekend and later I see a SnapChat of me in front of her riding a section of paved trail that goes down hill has a grooved transition to a bridge over a marsh area.  So, she is riding down hill with her phone out filming me...sigh...  I tell her “please don’t do that, I want you around for awhile longer”...She will continue because the Queen does what the Queen wishes    We were duck hunting on Lake Michigan just south of downtown Milwaukee years ago.  My friend had a beautiful deep V Lund that handled a choppy lake “inside break wall” just fine.  We were launching and a couple of guys were in a John Boat.  I said to them “Hey Quint, I think you need a bigger boat”...You go into the lake in waders and it’s “C Ya”...Sidenote, friend had this beautiful little lab bitch that maybe weighed 40 pounds.  Neoprene vest on we would see her (on retrieve) and then a wave would hide her...She would look back and we steered her to downed Golden Eye (Diver ducks that are beautiful) by throwing shotgun shells...The southern boundary was a church steeple...lol

Edited August 21, 2020 by Missile=Awesome

[flyboy0681]

Speaking of risky sports, does anybody have a ranking of sports and their risk factor? I'd like to know when compared to SCUBA diving, mountain climbing, motorcycle riding et al, where GA flying comes in.

[MooneyMitch]

20 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

Speaking of risky sports, does anybody have a ranking of sports and their risk factor? I'd like to know when compared to SCUBA diving, mountain climbing, motorcycle riding et al, where GA flying comes in.

See my recent post in Tasteless Jokes of the Day for high risk sports!! I suggest sticking to motorcycles, diving, mountain climbing m, etc 

[Amelia]

According to Siri, , GA flying makes nobody’s top 10. Now base-jumping, wingsuit flying, hang-gliding, sky diving, motocross racing, mountain climbing, heli-skiing, ski-jumping, etc,, make lots of them. Even SCUBA diving usually Is on the list.  
Is that consoling?

[flyboy0681]

7 minutes ago, Amelia said:

According to Siri, , GA flying makes nobody’s top 10. Now base-jumping, wingsuit flying, hang-gliding, sky diving, motocross racing, mountain climbing, heli-skiing, ski-jumping, etc,, make lots of them. Even SCUBA diving usually Is on the list.  
Is that consoling?

GA is perceived as being highly dangerous, especially if one watches the local Sunday night news. I was just curious how it ranks with other sports. I remember having a friendly argument a few years ago with a guy about the dangers of flying, this coming from a guy with a Harley.

[MooneyMitch]

9 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

GA is perceived as being highly dangerous, especially if one watches the local Sunday night news. I was just curious how it ranks with other sports. I remember having a friendly argument a few years ago with a guy about the dangers of flying, this coming from a guy with a Harley.

The media generally sensationalizes airplane incidents and/or crashes.  

Yep, your HD person is certainly at high risk.  

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Swiss Wild Streak...

You got it right the second time!

Plan on flying a bit longer....

We have some MSers fly safely into their eighties... 

 

You may feel safer when you read about other sports...

Scuba... craziness when something Like CO accidentally gets drawn into the compressor’s intake...

Motorcycles... craziness when sitting at an intersection waiting for the green light.... Big cars don’t see you...

Healthy Joggers... craziness when out for a jog... Heart attack within a few months of visiting the doctor...
 

As a VFR pilot... go out of your way to avoid flying VFR into IMC.... and Do not run out of gas...

As an IFR pilot... you will get two new objectives... 

PP thoughts only, not CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, Missile=Awesome said:

Not ALL bikers/hunters/pilots/snowmobiles etc have the same risk exposure through the activity statistically speaking, but you can do or not do things that mitigate risk.  My wife and I were biking while Up North last weekend and later I see a SnapChat of me in front of her riding a section of paved trail that goes down hill has a grooved transition to a bridge over a marsh area.  So, she is riding down hill with her phone out filming me...sigh...  I tell her “please don’t do that, I want you around for awhile longer”...She will continue because the Queen does what the Queen wishes    We were duck hunting on Lake Michigan just south of downtown Milwaukee years ago.  My friend had a beautiful deep V Lund that handled a choppy lake “inside break wall” just fine.  We were launching and a couple of guys were in a John Boat.  I said to them “Hey Quint, I think you need a bigger boat”...You go into the lake in waders and it’s “C Ya”...Sidenote, friend had this beautiful little lab bitch that maybe weighed 40 pounds.  Neoprene vest on we would see her (on retrieve) and then a wave would hide her...She would look back and we steered her to downed Golden Eye (Diver ducks that are beautiful) by throwing shotgun shells...The southern boundary was a church steeple...lol

Certainly.  And not all pilots have the same risk exposure.  The trick In all these is to be in the lower risk group by design and practice.

[Missile=Awesome]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

Certainly.  And not all pilots have the same risk exposure.  The trick In all these is to be in the lower risk group by design and practice.

By God Holmes I think you’ve got it!

[Amelia]

I was thinking the same thing. My scuba diving is mighty tame. Pretty clear, tropical water, nearly always less than 100 feet deep.  My flying? Pretty bland.. I am actually content with boredom. I like clear, calm days, long-ish paved runways, Flight-following.. Never, even once, have I considered seeing if they make wingsuits in size XL, short. Y’all please drop by and visit me when they cart me off to the home for wandering old ladies.

[flyboy0681]

36 minutes ago, Amelia said:

 Y’all please drop by and visit me when they cart me off to the home for wandering old ladies.

I've always said that I want to die in bed at 95 by the hands of a jealous husband.

[Hank]

3 hours ago, flyboy0681 said:

I've always said that I want to die in bed at 95 by the hands of a jealous husband.

or by the hands of an adventurous woman . . . . .

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Hank said:

or by the hands of an adventurous woman . . . . .

Kinky

[flyboy0681]

13 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

GA flying is more dangerous.  And there is a greater chance of serious injury or death from an individual GA accident than an accident on a bike or in a car. This is from Cyclehelmets.org.  The data is from the 90's but I bet the relative ranking is about the same.  GA got a bit safer but so did most things.  Recent data points to an uptick in GA fatality rates from a few years ago.

 

Very interesting. I would not have thought that flying was twice as dangerous as motorcycling. I was under the (mistaken) impression that they were on par.

[kortopates]

I don't trust the above stats - normalized per miles is a better comparison. The below comparison was made by the Kings Aviation school. In the comparison they make GA is 7-8 times worse than fatal car accidents but 2.3 times less than the motorcycles - normalized by vehicle miles :

[Hank]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

There are lies, damned lies and statistics . . . .

[carusoam]

The Kerrville accident results...

Proof that anyone can make mistakes with simple fueling errands. Even really smart people.

It helps to have two independent fuel measuring systems on board...

They didn’t need the accuracy of Cies gauges... even mechanical float wing gauges would have saved six lives...

 

So when flying with the person that is less comfortable in the plane... Show them how YOU avoid running out of fuel...  (No prizes are awarded for running out of fuel)

Discuss what you are trained to do when you are flying VFR and a cloud surrounds your plane... (VFR into IMC)

 

Running out of fuel in a twin takes on a whole new dimension when one engine comes back to life at full power...

Know your blue line airspeed...

 

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

You only have to go as far as the guy with the P-tube with rain-X on his wings to know... Go José!

Having the fuel capacity to skip a fuel stop is a fantastic speed mod...

So is 310hp...

-a-

[kortopates]

Just now, 1980Mooney said:

150 mph AVERAGE?...really?  All those hours on the Hobbs Meter while taxiing, holding, take off and climb, approach, in the pattern, landing...all AVERAGING 150 mph?  And considering there have been 44,000+ Cessna 172, about 9,000 Cessna 152,  30,000+ Piper PA28 160-180/Warrior/Archer, other 10's of thousands of Taylorcraft, Ercoupe, AA1-5, American Champion, Lake LA4, LSA's,  new ICON5 (max speed of whopping 109 mph!), etc. etc. built most of which are puttering around in those "averages" .  Many of these planes  would be hard pressed to do 150 mph in a dive.  

The nice thing about about the upgraded Foreflight is you can see traffic live.  I see a lot of 172's at 115 knt in cruise.  I bet with taxi, patterns, climbs and landings that they average about 100-110 mph at best when you look at distance per Hobbs Meter hours.

I know us Mooney drivers are mighty proud of our speed but that means us and the 182's and the Bonanzas  and Cirrus have to be clocking something between 200 and 300 mph all the time in order to make up for our own slower approach, pattern, hold. take off and taxi speeds as well as make up for the large population of "slugs" flying in that "150 mph Average".

As you say "I don't trust" the above normalization.

Yes those numbers are much more meaningful since GA includes all the TurboJet and Turbo-prop traffic and Part 135 On demand - essentially everything but Part 121 scheduled carriers ops. Plus its the faster planes that fly majority of the mileage. If you actually want to run some numbers from real data, see the latest FAA GA survey from FY2018 here: https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/general_aviation/CY2018/

[Hank]

27 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

150 mph AVERAGE?...really?  All those hours on the Hobbs Meter while taxiing, holding, take off and climb, approach, in the pattern, landing...all AVERAGING 150 mph?  . . .

I know us Mooney drivers are mighty proud of our speed but that means us and the 182's and the Bonanzas  and Cirrus have to be clocking something between 200 and 300 mph all the time in order to make up for our own slower approach, pattern, hold. take off and taxi speeds as well as make up for the large population of "slugs" flying in that "150 mph Average".

I made a trip once, just a little over 1300 nm each way, with a Skyhawk that wouldn't go more than 3 hour legs. While I don't remember and didn't calculate the average speeds for them, my little C averaged 127 knots (146 mph) westbound and 151 knots (174 mph) eastbound groundspeeds, figuring elapsed (logged) time from first motion to parking, with lots of taxiing around unfamiliar airports that were closer together than I would have stopped if traveling alone. 

So my own ~2600 nm trip averaged 139 knots (160 mph). Most Mooneys are faster than Cs, as are most Bonanzas, Cirri, twins, etc., and many singles that are run at Full Rental Power. This is all empirical data, groundspeed based on distance divided by total time.

This leaves me to think that 150 mph isn't an unreasonable number. What's the groundspeed in a 2-hour King Air flight in mph? 350 mph? 400 mph? How about that little Falcon jet--600 mph? And there are as many RVs of various models flying around as there are Mooneys. Gotta include them all . . . .

Edited August 22, 2020 by Hank