Landing a Mooney Ovation

[MooneyMitch]

Lots of great advice and experience already provided by everyone.  Landing the Ovation.............let's see if I remember my experiences with 211MJ ['94 year] under what I would call a normal condition situation.  I do recall my initials were quite interesting and inconsistent [YIKES!]

Speed and stabilized approach are paramount.  Normally I was relatively light to medium load.  Final approach over fence.... full flaps, trim all the way back, 70KTS [sometimes a bit less depending], no speed brakes [ineffective at slow speeds], power off.  At flare time............slight back pressure keeping nose high attitude. Touch on mains nose high.  If I chose to keep the nose off longer on roll out..........apply more back pressure.  

Regarding full aft trim..............controversy exists with this for a go-around situation.  I did experience those with a full power go-around.  One must be quick on the draw with lots of hard forward pressure in conjunction with rapid trim adjustment! I cannot over emphasize this!!! For the 300HP Ovation, and full power go-around, I suggest having Arnold Schwarzenegger arms........ Mostly with my experiences, full power was not required for the go-around..............this worked well for me.  

+1 for Don Kaye video too.

Enjoy your beautiful wonderful Ovation!!

[MooneyMitch]

On 8/3/2020 at 6:05 AM, Fly_M20R said:

Hello Everyone!!

I have owned several Mooneys, starting with a 1984 201, followed by two 252's, two "M" Models and finally my current Ovation and have logged close around 2.300 hours in all of them and flown them everywhere in the U.S and also to see Angel Falls in Venezuela. I found that I could "roll on" practically all my landings in every Mooney except for my current Ovation. I would throttle back approaching or crossing the threshold and then just run the trim in ground effect and they would roll on all the time. This 1995 Ovation has taken me a while to master and I believe that it is because of the slick cowling without cowl flaps making it a bit more tricky to keep the final approach speed nailed as well as the nose not coming up completely after running the trim. Also, the somewhat limited view over the higher glare shield in the 1995 model change the landing "picture" compared to the other Mooneys. I do not use speed brakes on final since I prefer to master the "clean" technique with correct approach speed and believe it "rolls-on" better without them. I did this video on landing the Ovation and hope it helps those that may be interested. 

https://youtu.be/hnFt4vGmm7s

 

 

I just watched your video..... most enjoyable indeed.  Fine memories for me.

Comment..... for me, I never switch tanks while in pattern.  If I do switch it’s well before descending from cruise altitude. I believe you did mention switch to fullest tank in your video, not that you did or do that.  Just not for me.

Also as previously mentioned, my opinion a bit low on final approach.

Aren’t you just delighted we’ve all got our opinions?  Lol!

Again, thank you for sharing your video.....I sure enjoyed it!  

[MooneyMitch]

On 8/3/2020 at 6:05 AM, Fly_M20R said:

Also, the somewhat limited view over the higher glare shield in the 1995 model change the landing "picture" compared to the other Mooneys.

My opinion...... I did not find the glare shield created a limited forward sight ground view relative to the glare shield view on a C, E, F or otherwise.

What I found was that it is the longer Ovation cowl that changes the view of the ground visibility  directly in front, relative to the ground view in a shorter cowled Mooney, not the glare shield.

[Fly_M20R]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

I just watched your video..... most enjoyable indeed.  Fine memories for me.

Comment..... for me, I never switch tanks while in pattern.  If I do switch it’s well before descending from cruise altitude. I believe you did mention switch to fullest tank in your video, not that you did or do that.  Just not for me.

Also as previously mentioned, my opinion a bit low on final approach.

Aren’t you just delighted we’ve all got our opinions?  Lol!

Again, thank you for sharing your video.....I sure enjoyed it!  

Glad you enjoyed the video Mooneymitch!

I do what you do as well: switch to fullest tank prior to entering the pattern. I would have to look at the video, however I believe I just verified it was on full tank, per GUMPS. The least distractions in the pattern the safer one is. I do last GUMPS after I turn final. Same as in an approach, get everything set up over the FAF, including mixture and then just concentrate on needles.

We would not be human if we did not have different opinions. 

[Fly_M20R]

18 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

My opinion...... I did not find the glare shield created a limited forward sight ground view relative to the glare shield view on a C, E, F or otherwise.

What I found was that it is the longer Ovation cowl that changes the view of the ground visibility  directly in front, relative to the ground view in a shorter cowled Mooney, not the glare shield.

The M20M's also have the long cowl, just like the Ovation. I never had an issue with the two M's I owned for 10 years. I personally would much prefer lower seating with lower glare shield in the later model Ovations. The extreme of a high glare shield is of course The Spirit of St. Louis. I would have to get a bit of practice in it! 

Regarding running out of trim in my Ovation it may be due to tail rigging. I'm going to have it checked soon and report back.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Fly_M20R

[MooneyMitch]

Just now, Fly_M20R said:

Glad you enjoyed the video Mooneymitch!

I do what you do as well: switch to fullest tank prior to entering the pattern. I would have to look at the video, however I believe I just verified it was on full tank, per GUMPS. The least distractions in the pattern the safer one is. I do last GUMPS after I turn final. Same as in an approach, get everything set up over the FAF, including mixture and then just concentrate on needles.

We would not be human if we did not have different opinions. 

Got cha’ on the tank switching.

 Yeah, me too. GUMPS has been my longtime friend too.  I always do multiple repeated checks on final...... mostly gear down and locked out loud!! Yikes!!

My biggest fear is having to post my gear up arrival here on MS! 

Thanks again for posting the video. Brought back such great memories of my former dream machine!

N211MJ was labeled a ‘94 model. However it was released from Kerrville in December ‘94, so I thought of it as is your beauty.... a 95 model.  

[Fly_M20R]

14 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

 Yeah, me too. GUMPS has been my longtime friend too.  I always do multiple repeated checks on final...... mostly gear down and locked out loud!! Yikes!!

 

Just to verify gear is down and locked when I first put it down I will keep my hand on the gear handle until I get green on he annunciator panel AND also look down at the locked in position indicator on the floorboard. 

 

Thank you!

[Bentonck]

Great videos, thanks for the effort!  I enjoyed both of them. 

My landings in the Acclaim are a work in progress.  I have always managed to successfully get it on the ground but not at this level just yet.  

[Fly_M20R]

26 minutes ago, Bentonck said:

Great videos, thanks for the effort!  I enjoyed both of them. 

My landings in the Acclaim are a work in progress.  I have always managed to successfully get it on the ground but not at this level just yet.  

Thank you for your comment Bentonck!

The Acclaim is pretty slick and with the long cowling like the Ovation and a bit challenging to land.  “Practice makes perfect...”   Enjoy your great plane!!!!

[Healthpilot]

On 8/25/2020 at 3:34 PM, Fly_M20R said:

All of the above... 

I have watched ALL of your videos multiple times on YouTube. THANK YOU! POST MORE!!

Landing practice tip from me: If I don't have at least 15 pounds of weight in the baggage compartment and I am flying by myself I run out of trim in my Ovation. Thoughts?

[Fly_M20R]

5 minutes ago, Healthpilot said:

I have watched ALL of your videos multiple times on YouTube. THANK YOU! POST MORE!!

Landing practice tip from me: If I don't have at least 15 pounds of weight in the baggage compartment and I am flying by myself I run out of trim in my Ovation. Thoughts?

Same here. Probably need more like 30 lbs back there. One also has a tendency to have an approach speed a bit higher than should be when light. Hard to slow down to 70 kts when landing weight is around 2600 lbs (essentially M20J approach speed). 

I have found that the best landings come when one is actually able to feel a short period of ground effect while applying back trim simultaneously.

The trim could certainly have been set a bit differently in the Ivation such that one does not "run out"

Not sure if that helps. 

[carusoam]

Running out of trim doesn’t sound right…

But, if we aren’t privy to all the weights in the front seats, it would be hard to say how much to put in the trunk…

This is why we have a WnB app…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

-a-

[Fly_M20R]

13 hours ago, carusoam said:

Running out of trim doesn’t sound right…

But, if we aren’t privy to all the weights in the front seats, it would be hard to say how much to put in the trunk…

This is why we have a WnB app…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI…

-a-

The trim in the Ovation 1 I have behaves differently than every other Mooney I have owned (J, 2 K's, and two Bravos). In all the other Mooneys all one had to do was to press the trim switch up as one started the flare and without any yoke inputs they would all do roll-on landings. No tire squeeling at all, just quiet roll-on. With this Ovation after full trim up one has to still add a bit of back pressure on the yoke. It seems that other Ovation owners experience the same.

A case of oil and some other paraphernalia in the back is a good fudge factor without having to go into W&B app. Helps a bit with cruise performance as well....  

[hypertech]

Be careful rolling in all that trim. A go around with full up trim can be an experience. 

[carusoam]

I have only done many go-arounds in the O…

Trimmed for landing is definitely different than trimmed for Go around…

I am surprised, each time During the GA, that the trim switch is so strong….  

1) Holding attitude

2) Adjusting power

3) Reconfiguring

4) Waiting for the trim motor to finish, still waiting for the trim motor to finish…

5) Getting the arm exercised

6) Maintaining airspeed and climb rates… 

My thumb must think if it pushes the trim button harder, the trim motor will accelerate…. 
 

Running the trim to the end… also comes with some mechanical issues… the system is supposed to sense the end of the line…. But, if it doesn’t…. Jams become a fear of the mechanical mind….

Your CFI may teach… don’t fly with the trim…

Your mechanical friends will say don’t run the trim to the end… especially with the electric motor…

 

Just things to consider… the M20C wasn’t much different… except none of the electric motors… 

 

hmmmmm….. if only I could practice moving my yoke as smoothly as the trim motor does….

PP thoughts only, no guidance being offered…

Best regards,

-a-

[Fly_M20R]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:27 AM, hypertech said:

Be careful rolling in all that trim. A go around with full up trim can be an experience. 

It can be, however one should practice some touch and goes that end up in full trim to get the "whole" experience of having to correct for landing trim settings (elevator up and rudder neutral) and therefore significant pitch up as well as left yaw on takeoff. No surprises that way when doing the real thing. 

Missed approach is a different animal since the pitch trim does not have to be changed as much. Rudder trim still needs adjustment though. 

Doing push ups on a regular basis are good for a Mooney pilot...  
 

Chris

[Fly_M20R]

On 9/28/2022 at 12:45 AM, carusoam said:

I have only done many go-arounds in the O…

Trimmed for landing is definitely different than trimmed for Go around…

I am surprised, each time During the GA, that the trim switch is so strong….  

1) Holding attitude

2) Adjusting power

3) Reconfiguring

4) Waiting for the trim motor to finish, still waiting for the trim motor to finish…

5) Getting the arm exercised

6) Maintaining airspeed and climb rates… 

My thumb must think if it pushes the trim button harder, the trim motor will accelerate…. 
 

Running the trim to the end… also comes with some mechanical issues… the system is supposed to sense the end of the line…. But, if it doesn’t…. Jams become a fear of the mechanical mind….

Your CFI may teach… don’t fly with the trim…

Your mechanical friends will say don’t run the trim to the end… especially with the electric motor…

 

Just things to consider… the M20C wasn’t much different… except none of the electric motors… 

 

hmmmmm….. if only I could practice moving my yoke as smoothly as the trim motor does….

PP thoughts only, no guidance being offered…

Best regards,

-a-

I always really like your comments Anthony!!! 

All of the above are to the point. I wish that in my Ovation the trim would not end up at the top of travel when landing. All my other Mooneys it ended up below the top of travel and would have landings roll on. 

Yep, "don't fly the trim". Adjust trim to relieve yoke pressure for attitude desired. Except for landing as one flares. Much smoother than working the yoke, more so in a long body with the more sensitive pitch response. Of course, in Mooneys without electric trim will need to have adjusted trim for approach speed attitude and on flare do manual yoke inputs. All of these will be short body and also lighter Mooneys...

Regards,

Chris

[David Lloyd]

Chris, prior to my elevators being repaired, with just me aboard the trim would be near the top on short final.  After repair, trim is at the top.  I went over the bungee adjustments in detail with the mechanic and found the adjustments he made were in spec.  Might just be a matter of adjustment at one end of the scale or the other.

[Denis Mexted]

Hello All,

I had a few circuits in a M20R yesterday and the day today flying it. 40*C days at the moment where I'm at so the two flights I did today were up at the 10,000ft mark. I had a brief look at the POH today but didn't see what I was after.

Speed brakes, are they taken on at TOD and left to after landing?

CHT's. Bloody hell in the hot conditions I'm at if I didn't accelerate to 120kts fairly quickly after take-off I couldn't keep them in the green.

Any comments welcome.

 

[Fly Boomer]

On 11/12/2024 at 2:02 AM, Denis Mexted said:

Speed brakes, are they taken on at TOD and left to after landing?

No definitive answer.  Or, the answer is whenever you want.  They have no speed restrictions so you can use them anywhere from cruise to landing.  Some use them to establish a 500 fpm descent at TOD, some use them to adjust altitude in the pattern, some say their landings are better with them deployed, and some don't use them at all.

[FlyingScot]

8 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

No definitive answer.  Or, the answer is whenever you want.  They have no speed restrictions so you can use them anywhere from cruise to landing.  Some use them to establish a 500 fpm descent at TOD, some use them to adjust altitude in the pattern, some say their landings are better with them deployed, and some don't use them at all.

The only caveat is that you may wish to not become dependent on SB to manage consistently some portion of the flight, because their use is not advised during icing because of the risk of icing-induced failure-to-retract or of asymmetric retraction. It is tempting to use them to manage airspeed during critical phases as a matter of course, but these are often the same times (e.g. FAF to GS decent during approach through a layer of weather in fall/winter) that you are most likely to encounter these conditions, and I never wanted to build a dependency on SB in how I "normally" structure my approaches. (Otherwise, I do use them to stabilize an approach on occasion, and very often to keep from breaking the sound barrier on one of those ATC induced slam dunk decents from cruise.) But others may feel differently. 

 

[Bolter]

On 11/12/2024 at 12:02 AM, Denis Mexted said:

Hello All,

I had a few circuits in a M20R yesterday and the day today flying it. 40*C days at the moment where I'm at so the two flights I did today were up at the 10,000ft mark. I had a brief look at the POH today but didn't see what I was after.

Speed brakes, are they taken on at TOD and left to after landing?

CHT's. Bloody hell in the hot conditions I'm at if I didn't accelerate to 120kts fairly quickly after take-off I couldn't keep them in the green.

Any comments welcome.

 

The Ovation's CHT's can get toasty on hot days.  Generally speaking, you want to climb at 120 KIAS as your standard procedure.  The climb rate is nearly identical to max rate, and you keep a lot more cooling air through the cowling.  Depending on generation of Ovation, you will want to throttle back shortly after pattern altitude.  You no longer need all 310 HP power, and it will reduce the CHT's notably to back the power off.  I climb WOT, 2550, 120 KIAS, leaning as required to keep around 150-200 F ROP.  Once I am at a "safe" altitude, like 500-1500 feet AGL.  Like this, I can keep to 380F on the hottest cylinder in most conditions.  

YMMV, -dan

[Fly_M20R]

On 11/12/2024 at 3:02 AM, Denis Mexted said:

Hello All,

I had a few circuits in a M20R yesterday and the day today flying it. 40*C days at the moment where I'm at so the two flights I did today were up at the 10,000ft mark. I had a brief look at the POH today but didn't see what I was after.

Speed brakes, are they taken on at TOD and left to after landing?

CHT's. Bloody hell in the hot conditions I'm at if I didn't accelerate to 120kts fairly quickly after take-off I couldn't keep them in the green.

Any comments welcome.

 

Hi Denis,

Most likely reason for your CHT's being "bloody hell" could be your fuel flow at takeoff power. Since you are above sea level you would need to lean out the mixture to adjust for the altitude and not be too rich. If you have the original EGT gauge that has a range marked in blue (corresponding to 1300 - 1350 deg F) you should aim to have the mixture set in that range for your high altitude takeoff. That probe samples the output at the exhaust combining cylinders 2, 4 and 6. If you are at sea level then I found that one should have max takeoff FF at around 27 gph. Note that a lot of maintenance shops will not set it that high since it is higher than that specified for the engine. If you below that value you may reach 400 deg or higher for cylinder #5. All the other cylinders will be some 30 to 45 deg lower. 

 

Regarding speed brakes, they behave differently depending on which Precise Flight series speed brakes you have in your plane. If it's an earlier model (like my 1995 M20R) then it will have the original 100 Series speed brakes which have a slightly higher surface area than the newer 2000 Series installed in later models. With the 100 Series you should expect anywhere between 1100 or higher fpm descent as well as higher airspeed if you do not change trim or power. With the newer series you will get closer to a more tame 500 fpm without changing the trim or power. 

FlyingScot is absolutely correct in what he said above:

33 minutes ago, FlyingScot said:

their use is not advised during icing

  Therefore, practice using them in various scenarios, including approaches and landings. Nice thing about using them in the final approach segment of an approach is that if you need to go missed then retracting them will stop you descent without having to change trim or power. Establish your climb at any point after that by adding power, retracting gear and flaps.

When landing with them you may find that you need to keep some power as you flare. Try it out.

Chris

[T. Peterson]

On 11/12/2024 at 2:02 AM, Denis Mexted said:

Hello All,

I had a few circuits in a M20R yesterday and the day today flying it. 40*C days at the moment where I'm at so the two flights I did today were up at the 10,000ft mark. I had a brief look at the POH today but didn't see what I was after.

Speed brakes, are they taken on at TOD and left to after landing?

CHT's. Bloody hell in the hot conditions I'm at if I didn't accelerate to 120kts fairly quickly after take-off I couldn't keep them in the green.

Any comments welcome.

 

As a matter of technique one would never deploy the Speed brakes at TOD till landing. At least that is my opinion. In 20 series Lear jets and MD 80’s it was considered poor planning to use the boards. ATC slam dunks were the exception. In the Airbus 320 speed brake use was more common due to the slick wing and lower flap speeds, but even then they were only used sparingly. The Mooney is similar in that our great airplanes don’t want to come down and slow down due to the slickness of the airframe. Furthermore we keep our power in to avoid shock cooling. Therefore to attain a 3 or 4 to 1 descent ratio we most likely will have to cycle the speed brakes a bit to keep our desired descent profile depending on tailwind, headwind or turbulence. Of course you could mitigate speed brakes altogether by leaving altitude very early, but I don’t like long drawn out descents, but that’s just me. We are talking technique and everyone has their own preferences. This is just mine. You will sort out your own preferences also, but I would advise against a technique that requires speed brakes to be used constantly in the descent.

[kortopates]

On 11/13/2024 at 2:36 PM, Fly_M20R said:

Therefore, practice using them in various scenarios, including approaches and landings. Nice thing about using them in the final approach segment of an approach is that if you need to go missed then retracting them will stop you descent without having to change trim or power. Establish your climb at any point after that by adding power, retracting gear and flaps.

When landing with them you may find that you need to keep some power as you flare. Try it out.

I'll disagree since if you fly in weather, and you get comfortable using them on approaches then it will be too easy to forget and  deploy them in subfreezing temps by accident and then won't be able to get them to retract or even worse only one side retracts.
personally IMHO its really poor form to use them on approaches and in landings, in the same vein some pilots only want to use partial flap on landing to avoid properly trimming and airspeed control; i.e. a crutch. Ordinarily I am all about using every available tool but speed brakes can be hazardous in subfreezing temps. 

My personal goal in speed brakes usage is to limit my use to ATC mistakes rather than my own in order to realize maximum efficiency in my descents - so I'll take a PD descent at 2-300' FPM at cruise power every time I can get.