Electric Mooney

[RLCarter]

While going “Green” or using “Renewable Energy” makes some feel warm and fuzzy for doing their part, I don’t see it happening for at least 20+ years. I’m holding out for a teleportation gizmo 

[MooneyMitch]

23 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

While going “Green” or using “Renewable Energy” makes some feel warm and fuzzy for doing their part, I don’t see it happening for at least 20+ years. I’m holding out for a teleportation gizmo 

Yep, that too. 

[cliffy]

No the dilithium crystals will melt!

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, cliffy said:

No the dilithium crystals will melt!

Ok, ok, ... Scotty.

[Blue on Top]

Although $BB have been spent on the Uber concept, that is soooo far down the road and currently not realistic).  The certification process alone is a long, long road.

The path of least resistance is to electrify propulsion systems of currently certificated aircraft.  That in it self is a large task, but a good stepping stone for the next phase.  

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, Blue on Top said:

Although $BB have been spent on the Uber concept, that is soooo far down the road and currently not realistic).  The certification process alone is a long, long road.

The path of least resistance is to electrify propulsion systems of currently certificated aircraft.  That in it self is a large task, but a good stepping stone for the next phase.  

This one must be a first in that spirit of electrifying an already otherwise certified airplane - this one is for a specific mission of short hops.

https://www.businessinsider.com/magnix-all-electric-cessna-grand-caravan-takes-first-flight-2020-6

[mike_elliott]

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

So... i fell down on the max torque available at zero rpm argument... Darn-it... 

 

never deterred... I’ll start again...
 

The really coolest thing about electric planes....

They can fill themselves with energy, while parked in the hangar...

free electricity using solar collectors...

 

Mr. Elliot, do you have solar energy feeding your Tesla?, 

Not yet will have a Tesla solar glass roof installed in the near future with some battery backup. It would take a HUGE solar system to completely charge up the car. On the other hand, once a million mile battery is available, that makes using your car for your energy storage and powering your home, selling back to the grid at high price times and buying from the grid at low time of use charging times a real game changer

11 hours ago, carusoam said:

That is the kind of numbers I need to make the trigger pulling argument...

I have friends with Teslas...

I have friends with solar collectors...

I need an engineer level friend that can put these figures together...

At this time... various discounts seem to be necessary to make things break even...

Back in the day... prior to retirement, my gasoline costs were over $500 each month... (rough estimate)

My airport friend with the Tesla, took me for a ride down the runway...  

That’s a heavy car... it may use a few extra things like tires...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[mike_elliott]

11 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Some day ANTIFA will be throwing Tesla batteries into cop cars....

There is a strawman if I ever heard it. Tesla battery cars catch fire far less often than their gasoline counter parts. I saw a video just last week a trouper pulled a car over and while walking to the car, his ICE car caught fire because he pulled it onto some dry grass. Antifa goes for the sure thing...gas on gas

But you elude to the police having Tesla batteries ... here is one of many PD's now catching on. Post office has an RFQ out now that may well prove to go electric

 

 

[MooneyMitch]

I would definitely enjoy this model !!

[MooneyMitch]

9 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

There is a strawman if I ever heard it. Tesla battery cars catch fire far less often than their gasoline counter parts. I saw a video just last week a trouper pulled a car over and while walking to the car, his ICE car caught fire because he pulled it onto some dry grass. Antifa goes for the sure thing...gas on gas

But you elude to the police having Tesla batteries ... here is one of many PD's now catching on. Post office has an RFQ out now that may well prove to go electric

 

 

Excellent!  As a further incentive for PD’s to buy Tesla’s....... Tesla install supercharging stations at police stations! 

[MooneyMitch]

Question and thoughts........ at the current supercharging rate, would a Tesla be appropriate for a highway patrol vehicle due to the continuous use of the vehicle during a daily driving shift?

[N201MKTurbo]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

There is a strawman if I ever heard it. Tesla battery cars catch fire far less often than their gasoline counter parts. I saw a video just last week a trouper pulled a car over and while walking to the car, his ICE car caught fire because he pulled it onto some dry grass. Antifa goes for the sure thing...gas on gas

But you elude to the police having Tesla batteries ... here is one of many PD's now catching on. Post office has an RFQ out now that may well prove to go electric

 

 

Sorry, you missed my point.

What I was trying to say in a snarky manner, was that soon batteries will have a higher energy density than gasoline and would make a more effective IED than a Molotov Cocktail...

I was not eluding to the safety of Tesla's battery design... 

[Blue on Top]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

This one must be a first in that spirit of electrifying an already otherwise certified airplane - this one is for a specific mission of short hops.

https://www.businessinsider.com/magnix-all-electric-cessna-grand-caravan-takes-first-flight-2020-6

@aviatoreb  You are correct in that this is a good example of usefulness.  The Grand Caravan is somewhat glider like in wingspan and L/D ratio.  It also has a useful load of ~3,300 lbs.  It will be interesting to see how far these guys get.  I wish them well.

There is another firm doing a half and half with a Cessna C337 "Skymaster/O-2" with one engine being removed and replaced with an electric motor.

[aviatoreb]

47 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

There is another firm doing a half and half with a Cessna C337 "Skymaster/O-2" with one engine being removed and replaced with an electric motor.

Wow - that's a neat idea.

[cujet]

On 7/5/2020 at 9:45 PM, Blue on Top said:

 But, if we can get 30 minutes of battery power for an airplane, an on-board genset can supply the power for flight.  Yes, it would be heavier.  The engine can be a Chevy, Ford, etc., because if it craps out, the pilot still has 30 minutes to get the airplane on the ground.  This could be a certificated installation … I know, I'm on the ASTM committee writing these "regulations."  

The issue remains difficult, as 30 minutes of real world battery power in a Mooney really means at least 150HP is required, which sadly equals 75KWH of battery capacity (150KWH/2). Note: A post above is using 746 watts per HP, and is assuming a non possible 100% efficiency. A satisfactory rule of thumb is 1KWH battery power = 1 real world HP hour from the motor. 

Not only is my example of a 75KWH battery using a righteous discharge rate (2C) (twice the battery AH rating) but it seems that all energy dense battery packs need liquid cooling to tolerate such use. According to some sources, the Model 3's 75KWH battery is 1060 pounds.  Are batteries 3x as light on the horizon? As that seems to be what it will take to get the 30 minutes. 

In reference to batteries: We can only move so many ions, as there are only so many ions to move. 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by cujet

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, cujet said:

The issue remains difficult, as 30 minutes of real world battery power in a Mooney really means at least 150HP is required, which sadly equals 75KWH of battery capacity (150KWH/2). Note: A post above is using 746 watts per HP, and is assuming a non possible 100% efficiency. A satisfactory rule of thumb is 1KW battery power = 1 real world HP from the motor. 

Not only is my example of a 75KWH battery using a righteous discharge rate (2C) (twice the battery AH rating) but it seems that all energy dense battery packs need liquid cooling to tolerate such use. According to some sources, the Model 3's 75KWH battery is 1060 pounds.  Are batteries 3x as light on the horizon? As that seems to be what it will take to get the 30 minutes. 

We can only move so many ions, as there are only so many ions to move. 

 

In my post above I didn’t add efficiency into the equation, because the numbers were ridiculous at 100% efficiency. I didn’t need to cloud the conversation with reality.

[carusoam]

A collection of points raised above...
 

1) Heavy weights.... batteries are getting lighter by the month.... Just getting to the point that the empty plane can fly pretty well...

2) Large diameter/heavy cables... needed to move all the electrons.... Batteries and motors in the wing are nicely spread out.... What is the voltage being used in these applications?

3) Cooling... That is a lot of energy being released... is this not a problem for Tesla cars as well?

Best regards,

-a-

[cujet]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

A collection of points raised above...
 

1) Heavy weights.... batteries are getting lighter by the month.... Just getting to the point that the empty plane can fly pretty well...

2) Large diameter/heavy cables... needed to move all the electrons.... Batteries and motors in the wing are nicely spread out.... What is the voltage being used in these applications?

3) Cooling... That is a lot of energy being released... is this not a problem for Tesla cars as well?

Best regards,

-a-

1) Is not as true as many of us had hoped. Tesla is packing more and more cells into ever larger battery packs, giving the illusion of improvement. The 150WH per KG reality remains pretty steady in real world applications. Example: The upcoming 100KWH battery for the Model 3 is going to provide 400 miles of "non highway" range. Nobody mentions that it's twice as heavy as the Base Model 3's 50KWH battery. In fact, the 100KWH battery is so heavy, the Model 3 is going to be modified to carry the weight. 

2) Correct, moving power requires substantial cable runs. In the electric Extra 300, the Siemans 348HP electric motor runs on 580V and can provide 5 minutes of full power. Battery packs are now designed to provide 350V to 800V, depending on design. Obviously, the higher the voltage, the lighter the conductors are (for a given power) 

3) Tesla cars do have active liquid battery cooling. However, few people drive Tesla cars at 150HP continuous output, those that do (Autobahn) get "throttled" by software as the battery heats up. So the cooling requirements are comparatively modest. 

 

Note: my comment "We can only move so many ions, as there are only so many ions to move" is in reference to battery technology. 

Edited July 7, 2020 by cujet

[Blue on Top]

All:

Thanks for getting real with this thread   I agree with the vast majority of what has been said.  I am always optimistic on what can be accomplished and will try to speak to reality as much as I can/know.  My comment about 30 minutes would make certification of the first airplane much, much easier from a failure mode standpoint … of course along with a stall speed in the landing configuration of at or below 61 knots.

It's hard for me to imagine it has been more than a decade since I led a great team of engineers at Hawker Beechcraft, designing an electric Bonanza.  A lot has happened since then but nothing like what was predicted in energy storage.  That part hasn't happened as was originally predicted … in the lab or the real world.  Maybe Tesla will have some advancement with their new announcement?

I'm optimistic about the future.  Electric will bring a lot benefits not apparent on the surface … the biggest being much reduced airframe vibration and fatigue. 

[cujet]

Just now, Blue on Top said:

 

I'm optimistic about the future.  Electric will bring a lot benefits not apparent on the surface … the biggest being much reduced airframe vibration and fatigue. 

One thing NASA has noticed with certain designs using electric drive is the ability to eliminate the variable pitch prop. Instead, designing for low RPM on takeoff and climbout and high RPM in cruise flight. The benefit is low noise at the airport and fewer moving parts. 

[Blue on Top]

3 minutes ago, cujet said:

One thing NASA has noticed with certain designs using electric drive is the ability to eliminate the variable pitch prop. Instead, designing for low RPM on takeoff and climbout and high RPM in cruise flight. The benefit is low noise at the airport and fewer moving parts. 

@cujet  Are you one of the lucky ones to work on the X-57?  I get to talk with Nick Borer (program head, I believe) every Wednesday morning with our ASTM conference calls.  I've also had the honor to work with some of their contractors, too.  Ironically, Mooney related.

[cujet]

1 minute ago, Blue on Top said:

@cujet  Are you one of the lucky ones to work on the X-57?  I get to talk with Nick Borer (program head, I believe) every Wednesday morning with our ASTM conference calls.  I've also had the honor to work with some of their contractors, too.  Ironically, Mooney related.

No, not my world. I work for an exceedingly wealthy individual as Director of Maintenance in his corporate flight department. 

[mike_elliott]

20 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

Question and thoughts........ at the current supercharging rate, would a Tesla be appropriate for a highway patrol vehicle due to the continuous use of the vehicle during a daily driving shift?

A great question, I dont know how many miles are driven by State Police/highway patrol on a shift. The Model S's 400 mile range might be well suited, and I suspect we will see the Tesla Cybertruck in just such a role when released in a couple of years. The question of the week is who will land the factory to build them and the million mile, light weight battery, Austin or Tulsa?

Hummm...isnt Austin close to Kerrville

[cliffy]

16 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Hummm...isnt Austin close to Kerrville

Hmmmm Interesting!

[MooneyMitch]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

A great question, I dont know how many miles are driven by State Police/highway patrol on a shift. The Model S's 400 mile range might be well suited, and I suspect we will see the Tesla Cybertruck in just such a role when released in a couple of years. The question of the week is who will land the factory to build them and the million mile, light weight battery, Austin or Tulsa?

Hummm...isnt Austin close to Kerrville

My wish for the day..........Elon purchased Mooney to create electric Mooney that somewhat looks like the M20!!    Specially the vertical stabilizer!!!!