Wind

[Pentsuxtube]

I have lots of hours in a 172 so I know what it can handle or rather what I can handle in it, but I am still relatively new to my M20J.  The question is how much wind are people comfortable with?  Assuming there is a long wide runway and little crosswind component I suppose this is as much about how much wind is ok to taxi with.  What do you guys say?  How much wind will you take off or land with?

[M20F-1968]

You are asking a question that really has no answer.  If new to the J, start no wind and little crosswind angles, and get a feel for the airplane, how it handles in different configuration, weight and speeds.  Find your self a Mooney instructor (or even a Mooney safety pilot) and test out increasing crosswinds.  It is as much, if not more about your knowledge and ability to instinctively handle your airplane, in various conditions, than it is about the amount of cross-wind component.  Much different if gusty v. steady crosswind.  

I like crab to about 500 ft, then a stabilized approach hand flying with rudder correction until the flare so I know what the winds are like and how much of what correction I need.  I do not like the crab n' kick method.  

I have been known to land with speed brakes (if you have them) so to be able to carry more power if needed.  

There are several ways to practice and several strategies.  Learn what is instinctive for you, but more importantly learn how your airplane responds.  Practice slow flight, at altitude in various configurations.  Mooney's handle well in ground effect, which is good for landing, but something you need to watch out for on take-off when you leave ground effect (1 wingspan length).

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

I am at an airport which has routinely 20 knot, 90 degree cross winds.  They are doable, but build up to it.  Also, be mindful when you have not been flying for a while, as crosswind landing skills deteriorate with inactivity just like IFR skills.

John Breda

[Pentsuxtube]

Thanks.  I did get transition training with a well known Mooney CFI.  I just don't think this particular subject came up.  As I said this isn't about crosswinds it's about operating in windy conditions more or less straight down the runway.  30 knots sure, I could do that in a 172.  I am just curious about where more experienced folks draw the line in a Mooney.

[Hank]

Winds are less important to me if I'm going somewhere than flightseeing, practicing or going to lunch nearby, because I like to travel above 7500 msl where the wind is much less noticeable. 

Crosswind takeoffs are not a problem, just upwind aileron down and roll. Be prepared for the plane to weathervane into the wind as you rise off the ground. It's fun watching your groundtrack out the side window . . . . .

[Rwsavory]

I transitioned from high wing Cessnas to the Mooney about eight years ago.  Whatever you were comfortable with in a Cessna, you can probably add 5 to 10 knots to that.  As you gain more experience, you can take it from there.

[carusoam]

Great question...

One part... what does a one handed clap sound like?

Another part...  a Mooney is a great tool, when Mike E, and Paul K, fly it...

A third part... can I learn to fly like these guys?
 

A fourth part... How much experience does it take... in hours or years...?

 

In the end...

• there is a method to incrementally build one’s skill to match the challenges...
• There will be days you don’t want to go for a drive to the airport, never mind fly the plane... 
• The Mooney doesn’t run out of skill where you won’t be familiar with it...
• When the Mooney runs out of skills... you find a better place to land...

Wind considerations...

• Steady down the runway...
• x-wind component
• gusts...
• Trees, buildings, and other things that block and don’t block the wind...
• Comfort, passengers... 
• Wind comes with turbulence....

The windsock is a technical device that tells the pilot a lot about what he is about to encounter...

When the windsock is straight out... the wind has exceeded its Forcemeasuring skills... 

Build your strategies, practice your skills, discuss often...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

I find that Low wing aircraft tend to handle X-winds better than High wing aircraft

[Ibra]

14 minutes ago, RLCarter said:

I find that Low wing aircraft tend to handle X-winds better than High wing aircraft

On similar stall speeds? Or in general?

3 hours ago, Pentsuxtube said:

What do you guys say?  How much wind will you take off or land with?

On C172, when current I flew it in any winds/gusts it can taxi on, aircraft tend to be all over the place on cross controls and I mayb gun it with power from time to time 

M20J is a different matter, I tend to stick to stable approach and limits: landing at my base 25kts xwind (6000ft runway), 15kts xwind elsewhere (risk of AOG), while aircraft is really stable platform for xwind & gusts than C172 (heavy and higher stall speed and high wing load) it does like touching gound at specific speed/pitch or go-around, crosswind may distract you from that important pitch/speed task...

On technique, I fly clean crab when high in smooth air and switch to cross-control when down in low gusty air, add few kts on extra gusts factor

Also there is quality of crosswind to keep in mind? 30kts xwind of sea breeze on coastal airport along beach (M20J loves this place) vs 15kts xwind from hangars venturi effect or tall tree leafs (M20J hates these places)?

For takeoff not much limits, as long as I keep ailerons vs wind, fly runway with rudder and delay slightly my liftoff while resuming coordinated flying, one just need to keep in mind that doing that on gusty headwind & crosswind kills a lot of your takeoff roll performance on M20J vs C172 (used 3000ft once )

[Rmag]

Demonstrated x wind in the M20J is 11 kts, POH says over 12 kts you land with 15° flaps.  I add 5 kts to the landing too when not landing full flaps.  If you have the 2900 Gross Weight increase and you are flying over 2,740  then the POH calls for a 15° flaps for ANY cross wing under 10 kts, and no flaps above 10 kts and to add 6 kts speed above 2,740 lbs.

One of the most memorable x winds I’ve landed in was a 15 kt gusting 20 kt x wind component.  Actual wind 24 gusting 30.  Happened to get it on video too. Link below.

Had to stay on it, and in gusts you have to just keep adjusting.  I feel like the plane could have handled more.  I think I personally wouldn’t like to try over 30 kts max preferably a solid x wind; not gusts.

I like to crab down to the threshold then transition to cross control.  Sometimes when it’s gusty, you just have to adapt and fly the plane...

The hardest ones are where you have a strong X wind, gusting, and a variable direction so you can have headwinds turn to tailwinds and vice-versa while your dealing with the x wind.  If there was 20+ kt winds doing that kind of stuff, it can be very tricky. 

Jump to the 19:00 min mark in this video for the gusty x wind landing.
 

 

[Schllc]

Knowing the actual crosswind component in knots is next to impossible while inside the airplane. 
winds are seldom constant, and seldom directly 90deg. 
once you are confident and proficient in the airplane you fly, “too much” crosswind is simply a function of being able to be aligned with the runway and stabilized in the approach.  
my water shed moment was the time I found myself looking at the runway through rear part of the copilot window.  That was too much crosswind.

 

[bradp]

On 6/6/2020 at 5:09 PM, M20F-1968 said:

I am at an airport which has routinely 20 knot, 90 degree cross winds.  They are doable, but build up to it.  Also, be mindful when you have not been flying for a while, as crosswind landing skills deteriorate with inactivity just like IFR skills.

John Breda

You still at OWD with that right crosswind on 35 John ?

[moosebreath]

Well ... I was over Puget Sound once during severe convergence zone turbulence.  The smash your head on the ceiling, uncommanded 60 deg bank, no way to maintain an attitude actual real variety.  Boeing Field had 35 knot direct crosswinds but was RIGHT THERE. I figured anything was better than what I was experiencing and at least I would be on the ground.

Hence I can tell you, from experience, that you can land on the upwind side of a wide runway with a 35 knot direct crosswind, and barely maintain control as you drift across the runway with full crossed controls and slide into a turn off and stop.  So as far as I am concerned 35 knots is the limit.

There are strong crosswinds at my home airport almost every day.  The gust severity, stability of the crosswind direction, and turbulence from trees and buildings are all major factors.  A plain old steady 20 knot crosswind on a big runway with no obstructions (a big airport out west in the summer ) is not a big deal with practice.  I use half flaps or none in those conditions.

 

 

[carusoam]

35kts...

Is enough to blow the Mooney across the ramp... (From my M20C experience...)

It takes two people to put the plane away....

Really helps to have a working parking brake...
 

Use care when opening the door...

That is the most wind I think I ever landed with, and it was right on the nose during the landing...
 

Best regards,

-a-

[David Lloyd]

Comfortable is not something I ever feel about wind.  Competent, yes.  Comfort, no. ILS to minimums, turbulence, thunderstorms, ice; wind on landing has always generated more sweat. Wind always seems to have me sitting straight up in the seat with my eyeballs about to rub the windshield.   A wide runway, angling across to lessen the effect of a crosswind might help.  Use all the control travel available as needed to make the airplane do what you want it to do. An F33A Bonanza will run out of rudder in a 30 knot direct crosswind.  An RV7, rudder pedal will be on the firewall in a 23 knot direct crosswind.  Don't know about a Mooney.  I did leave Roswell, NM one afternoon in a 35 knot wind.  But that was directly down the runway.  Actually it was a taxiway they used for windy days.  For some reason, most of my big wind experiences have been in NM or west Texas.  Short runways offer an extra challenge.  I used a 2200' strip with a 500' overrun a dozen or two times in Canada. 2200 was not a problem normally but throw in a 20 knot crosswind and that runway suddenly became a hundred feet shorter than what I needed. Fly a couple times a week.  Have your boss pick destinations in Eastern NM and CO, and west Texas.  Have you wife pick the days.  In a year you will be amazed what wind that J will handle.  Maybe not comfortable, but amazed.

[Ibra]

Rudder ability to compensate for aileron wind highly depends on approach speed for sideslip, you need more speed against gusts but you lose rudder authority, so where to put the balance?, it does always come back when you flare as wind and aircrafts slow down near the ground, so the limit really depends on when you start to sideslip & wind gust factor 

Crabbing into smooth wind has literrally no crosswind limit but more 90deg angular limit 

A mix of crab & sideslip at the right height does the job, slow taxi in high winds, runway length and currency will be the main limiting factors IMO

What one can do for practice in homebase in "interesting days" may not help a lot when visiting new places, that is where strict limits are highly encouraged 

I am careful with M20J in high crosswind gusts as it has a high risk of prop strike on unstable approach or bounce from excess of speed (but happy to take rental C172/DA40 to play in 30kts-40kts) 

[Mooney in Oz]

All this talk of landing Mooneys in up to 35 knots of crosswind; please don't forget our Mooneys are only light, single engine aircraft and don't have the inertia of a max landing weight, 650,000 lb Boeing 747.  35 knots is about the same crosswind limitation recommended by Boeing for the 747.

A phenomena that has not been mentioned that can be associated with gusty winds from any direction of even less than 35 knots is either overshoot or undershoot sheer.  Unless you are landing at a controlled airport, you won't know it's there. Get caught in either, particularly strong undershoot sheer, you will at least be in for the shock of your life if not worse.  I'm not exaggerating.

Undershoot sheer is also dangerous during the take off phase, as once you clear the tops of the trees or buildings, you are initially battling to climb with our measly powered engines. A slick airframe won't cut it. Ask me how I know.  

If you are caught out and have a choice, land elsewhere.

If you don't have a choice and have to land, good luck and well done if successful. 

Some days it's better to be grounded.

  

[Andy95W]

"It’s better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground."

[Ibra]

22 hours ago, Mooney in Oz said:

Undershoot sheer is also dangerous during the take off phase, as once you clear the tops of the trees or buildings, you are initially battling to climb with our measly powered engines. A slick airframe won't cut it. Ask me how I know.

On takeoff you will burn a lot of runway with crosswind winsheer or headwind turbulence/gusts ahead, the performance charts & short field landing techniques with lot of wind tend to be misleading on this aspect, they assume smooth air & slow steep Vx climb, completely the wrong thing to do in a 30kts head/cross wind & turbulence day, either go fast & shallow or do not takeoff: 0kts wind is better than 30kts wind on a short field with obstacles on the side or in the front (e.g. trees, terrain) 

For landing I am looking to get down and the windsheer may help for that purpose with right amount of extra speed, power inertia in piston Mooney is probably quiker than heavy jet but the same human limitation applies: less awarness when I hit windsheer and I may not act quickly with yoke & power 

 

I did 12kts crosswind yesterday, felt like 50kts as I have not flown the M20J since late October last year 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Ibra

[bradp]

One more issue with wind on departure - know which direction the wind is aloft.  Is there a shear level? If significant wind aloft and a crosswind departure, chose the direction that will put you into the wind or ensure you have extra energy available to punch through the shear.  Climbing over some trees and encountering a shear level is not where you want to start hearing the stall horn chirp. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

On 6/10/2020 at 9:53 PM, moosebreath said:

I can tell you, from experience, that you can land on the upwind side of a wide runway with a 35 knot direct crosswind, and barely maintain control as you drift across the runway with full crossed controls

After landing my 1964 E at Mather KMHR once with a steady  30+ knots blowing directly across the (very wide) runway I agree with the “barely maintain some control” bit.    

Mather’s published runway width is 150’ but the concrete of that former SAC base extends much wider.  I’m sure I used at least 200’ of its width landing that day.  

What’s the saying — “If you can’t be good, be lucky.”  I was lucky to pass cleanly between two of the 2’ tall runway edge lights on my journey across the tarmac.  

The lights are along the white edge markings:

I should have landed 90 degrees across the runway.  Or gone elsewhere.

[jlunseth]

There are crosswinds and there are crosswinds. Most of the time ground friction causes the reported crosswind to moderate right above the runway. But if the cattails in the slough next to the runway are laying flat and oscillating over a 100 plus degree range you know the runway is scoured by the wind and you are in for an interesting landing. No flaps, more speed, up to 90 knots. If you are lucky enough to have a headwind component, you can subtract that from airspeed to geet landing (ground) speed at touchdown. Practice it first.

[Ibra]

5 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

 I’m sure I used at least 200’ of its width landing that day.

Did you make the RT call "runway vacated" in the meantime ? 

[Yetti]

The Money is nothing like the 172 due to it's lower cross section and thinner wing.   The funnest one I did was set up for the landing the tail got pushed around.  set up for another one, tail got pushed around.   Then set up for a one wheel landing and it came down nicely.   Usually only half flaps more speed.  Sometimes no flaps.   One wheel landings gets the wing level so it does not get picked up.   Just have lots of tricks in the pilot bag to pull out.   They fly really nice.

[midlifeflyer]

On 6/6/2020 at 5:22 PM, Pentsuxtube said:

Thanks.  I did get transition training with a well known Mooney CFI.  I just don't think this particular subject came up.  As I said this isn't about crosswinds it's about operating in windy conditions more or less straight down the runway.  30 knots sure, I could do that in a 172.  I am just curious about where more experienced folks draw the line in a Mooney.

You lost me. Unless there was a significant gust factor or the wind was so strong that I might fly backwards before touchdown (I did do a "helicopter" landing in a 182 in Cody, WY once :D), I wasn't very concerned about landing in it in any airplane I've flown.