Adam Wilson

[avwilson52]

I have a few questions about CPL flight time requirements.  I own a M20 J and have around 510 hours about 100 of which are in Mooneys.  My question however is not about Mooneys, it's about flight time and what counts.  I know for sure most of what I've done counts towards the CPL requirements with the exception of these questions:

1.  I have 4.6 hours of night time post my PPL license and another 3 that was conducted before earning my PPL.  So does that time count towards the 5 hours requirement even though it was pre-PPL?

2. I have an instrument rating with about 100 hours instrument time.  Does that cover the 10 hours instrument training requirement for 61.127?  It seems to me if I have taken my check ride and have an instrument rating, that should count.  I'm just not sure if that specifically must be done under some CPL requirement?  

3.  Lastly, that 3 hours long night cross country done prior to my PPL, does that satisfy the CPL requirement for the 2 hours cross country or do I need to repeat it now that I have my PPL?

 

Nearly all of my flights are trips, so I more than meet the cross country requirements including the long 300 NM with one leg of 250 NM from point of departure.  I've flown several just to make sure its covered.  In one instance I flew from Augusta, GA to the Bahamas, but stayed there a few days so I'm not sure that counts as "one flight".  It was certainly long enough, but since I have done others this is just a general curious question...

Thanks!

Adam

[BaldEagle]

16 minutes ago, avwilson52 said:

Nearly all of my flights are trips, so I more than meet the cross country requirements including the long 300 NM with one leg of 250 NM from point of departure.  I've flown several just to make sure its covered.  In one instance I flew from Augusta, GA to the Bahamas, but stayed there a few days so I'm not sure that counts as "one flight".  It was certainly long enough, but since I have done others this is just a general curious question...

Thanks!

Adam

“(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles;“

That’s a question for your CFI! Been a while since I did mine, but I just picked a trip from my logbook that I thought was interesting: San Diego to Portland (Troutdale), with a couple of stops on the way, and a few days in Portland before flying back in one day with 2 hops (all VFR and in a Mooney). The DPE was familiar with TTD and we had a fun conversation about that trip.  Long time ago though, but the requirements are unambiguous.  There’s nothing saying the trip has to be done the same day.

[Brian E.]

Adam -  FAR § 61.129  is your friend.  There are solo experience requirements (or designated PIC if you're dual for insurance pusposes) for Commercial ASEL listed in 61.129(a)(4).

For question 1 regarding whether your night experience counts I would asked how did you record it in your logbook?  Were you PIC? Were you solo? Don't read into the question, all you need is 5 hrs of night VFR.

Q2: 61.129(a)(3)(i) requires you to have 10 hrs of simulated instrument training--your instrument experience doesn't help you here.  Your instrument training may depending on how it was documented.  I listened to a webinar with a DPE who cited he looked for the the logbooks to indicate 61.129 training by a CFII for it to count towards your commercial.  Looking at the FAR text it simply says do instrument stuff...nothing cosmic: including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems.  Doesn't seem much different to me that the instrument PTS requires...

Q3: Go back to 61.129(a)(4)(i).  The requirement is for a XC of 300 nm total with at least 3 stops and a leg of at least 250 nm from the departure point with no time requirement for this event.  Note that there are 2 training XCs which must be accompanied by a CFI-- one day and one night each at least 2 hrs long covering a straight line distance of 100 nm from the point of origin.   

Go fly, have fun.  Do it in a Mooney--it's more fun.

Not a CFI or DPE, just a PP...

r,

brian

 

 

[PT20J]

61.129 specifies the cumulative experience you must have logged as a pilot before your practical test. It doesn't refer to previous certificates or ratings; just logged experience.

Skip

[Hank]

@avwilson52, just make sure you have the correct length / number of stop XC hours & distances solo in addition to the total hours in each category.

[Deb]

Question 1 is an interesting one:

14CFR61.129 (a) (4) starts:

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board...

and 14CFR61.129 (a) (4) (ii) states: 

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower. 

The FAA doesn’t define “performing the duties of pilot in command with an authorized instructor on board” per se. There is an FAA legal interpretation of 61.129 which states in part https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2014/kuhn - (2014) legal interpretation.pdf:

The second question concerns how the pilot performing the duties of PIC with an authorized instructor may log flight time. Because this flight time is a substitute for solo flight time, the pilot is not receiving instruction and therefore cannot log this time as dual instruction received. The pilot can log the time to meet the requirements of § 61.129(a)(4) and log total flight time. Section 61.51 (e) prescribes the requirements for logging PIC time. The pilot could log PIC time under § 61.51(e)(l)(i) if the pilot has a private pilot certificate with the appropriate ratings for the aircraft. Otherwise, the pilot cannot log PIC time.

The question answered appears to be the corollary to the one posed by Adam (@avwilson52). Flight time with an authorized instructor as a substitute for solo flight time can’t be logged as dual instruction. This implies (although not specifically states) that flight time logged as dual instruction given can’t be used as a substitute for solo flight (with an instructor). Mark (@midlifeflyer) has expertise with this and can provide a more complete answer.

Solo time logged during private pilot training can be used towards the commercial requirements as applicable. Note the requirement for 10 night takeoffs and landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Question 2: Short answer, if you have an instrument rating that qualifies.

Question 3:

14CFR61.129 (a) (3) starts:

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—

and 14CFR61.129 (a) (3) (iv) states:

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

Taken together, the night flight must have been with an instructor, lasted longer than 2 hours and more than 100 nm total straight line distance from the original point of departure. If your private training had a flight like that, you can use it.

Extra question: A cross country lasts as long as it lasts – a day, week, month, whatever. So a trip from GA to the Bahamas with a week vacation there counts, as long as it meets the other requirements.

Edited June 4, 2020 by Deb

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Deb said:

Question 1 is an interesting one:

14CFR61.129 (a) (4) starts:

(4) Ten hours of solo flight time in a single engine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a single engine airplane with an authorized instructor on board...

and 14CFR61.129 (a) (4) (ii) states: 

(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower. 

The FAA doesn’t define “performing the duties of pilot in command with an authorized instructor on board” per se. There is an FAA legal interpretation of 61.129 which states in part https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2014/kuhn - (2014) legal interpretation.pdf:

The second question concerns how the pilot performing the duties of PIC with an authorized instructor may log flight time. Because this flight time is a substitute for solo flight time, the pilot is not receiving instruction and therefore cannot log this time as dual instruction received. The pilot can log the time to meet the requirements of § 61.129(a)(4) and log total flight time. Section 61.51 (e) prescribes the requirements for logging PIC time. The pilot could log PIC time under § 61.51(e)(l)(i) if the pilot has a private pilot certificate with the appropriate ratings for the aircraft. Otherwise, the pilot cannot log PIC time.

The question answered appears to be the corollary to the one posed by Adam (@avwilson52). Flight time with an authorized as a substitute for solo flight time can’t be logged as dual instruction. This implies (although not specifically states) that flight time logged as dual instruction given can’t be used as a substitute for solo flight (with an instructor). Mark (@midlifeflyer) has expertise with this and can provide a more complete answer.

Solo time logged during private pilot training can be used towards the commercial requirements as applicable. Note the requirement for 10 night takeoffs and landings (with each landing involving a flight in the traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.

Question 2: Short answer, if you have an instrument rating that qualifies.

Question 3:

14CFR61.129 (a) (3) starts:

(3) 20 hours of training on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(1) of this part that includes at least—

and 14CFR61.129 (a) (3) (iv) states:

(iv) One 2-hour cross country flight in a single engine airplane in nighttime conditions that consists of a total straight-line distance of more than 100 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

Taken together, the night flight must have been with an instructor, lasted longer than 2 hours and more than 100 nm total straight line distance from the original point of departure. If your private training had a flight like that, you can use it.

Extra question: A cross country lasts as long as it lasts – a day, week, month, whatever. So a trip from GA to the Bahamas with a week vacation there counts, as long as it meets the other requirements.

Sounds like you covered it.

[avwilson52]

I appreciate all of the responses!  This clears up a lot!  To answer Brian's question...yes, it is logged as PIC time.  So I'm thinking I'm covered as far as night is concerned. 

I also appreciate the information on the cross-country logged time.  Since I use my plane mainly for taking trips, most of my cross-country time is overnight or over several days.  So I appreciate the response to that and it's good to know those flights can be counted as one.  I've always felt that a cross-country flight doesn't end until you get back home.  You may stop for a few hours to visit a town or have lunch, so why should that pause make them separate flights?   Just how I've always thought of it. 

I'm new to the forum, so I appreciate the responses!  I'm on my second Mooney.  I bought a M20C years ago and then traded it in for a 1981 M20J (N1141K).  This is my fourth airplane and I'm pretty sure this is my last.  I'm in love with the 201.  It's the only plane I've ever flown that actually gets the speeds that the book says it should.  It's pretty standard to look down and see a 165 KTS ground speed.  Though I loved my C model, the extra room, speed and electric gear made me fall in love all over again.   Don't ask me why the picture is upside down.  I tried everything and it always popped up that way. 

Thanks again to everyone! 

 

Adam

[carusoam]

You have so much to learn, Adam...

you have come to the right place...

Keep the clean side up!

-a-

 

[avwilson52]

Thanks Carusoam!  Thankfully my flying skills are better than my computer skills.  Maybe you can help with this one too. 

 

Rather than add another posting, I'm just tagging on.  I flew Sunday to Arkansas from Dallas.  I fueled up on my stop and did a quick walk-around, so this definitely happened on my return trip.  Not sure if anyone has had this happen, but this access panel under the tail ripped in half somewhere between Arkansas and Dallas.  My mechanic was able to fabricate a new panel, and it didn't cause any issues, but I thought I'd share the experience.  My mechanic said it was just sheet metal screwed to sheet metal and it appears a screw or two let loose.  He's added backings so we can bolt the panels on going forward.  He's also used heavier duty panels.  Anyway, just thought I'd share.  In case anyone wants to check their panels to make sure they're sound...

Adam

[carusoam]

I know a guy...

That has replacement parts...
 

There are also spacers that go between the sheet metal and that piece...

There is a slight bevel bent into the leading edge...

Often, over the years, the spacers get lost, the cracks form and propagate...

There are usually some form of receiver (Aka tinnerman) on the other side of the tail wall for the sheet metal screw to thread into...
 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[bradp]

I want to say Tinnerman. 

[gsxrpilot]

I recently went through the same situation with CPL time requirements. 

I only had one cross country flight, out of over 900 hours of cross country time, that qualified. Most of my cross country flight included my wife, so not solo. And my for my solo cross country flights, the Mooney has too much range. So I never have two stops. I have a long list of trips that were well over 1000 nm, but none of them had two stops. I found one flight in my log book where I flew from Austin to San Francisco, solo. I made one fuel stop, and one additional stop to take a work phone call. If it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have had a single flight that qualified.

I also didn't have the requisite night experience. Very few of my night flights involved a trip in the pattern. Since having an IR, it's just easier to either go IFR or fly an approach on arrival to a new airport after dark. I just didn't have any night landings with a trip in the pattern. So I went out one night and did ten laps in the pattern with take offs and landings. 

Finally I needed the day and night flight with a CFI on board. So my brother (CFII) and I took off at 3am and flew to breakfast (night) then flew back (day) and done.

But in the end, it's all flying and therefore fun. Just go do it.

[Vance Harral]

On 6/3/2020 at 6:11 PM, avwilson52 said:

Not sure if anyone has had this happen, but this access panel under the tail ripped in half somewhere between Arkansas and Dallas.

Ours didn't rip in half, it just completely departed the airplane altogether (I guess it may have torn before doing so).  The only thing holding it on at the time were sheet metal screws through the fairing and into the empennage skin - no nut plate or other backing.  It's hard to believe the factory designed it that way, but the parts manual indicates only screws to hold that fairing on.

Like you, we had a new fairing fabricated, though we had to do it at a remote airport in order to get back home.  Shortly after getting home, we worked with our A&P to drill out the holes in the empennage skin slightly, and install riv-nuts to receive machine screws.  Was signed off as a minor mod.  I'd definitely recommend that mod to anyone else!

Edited June 9, 2020 by Vance Harral

[N201MKTurbo]

On 6/3/2020 at 5:11 PM, avwilson52 said:

Thanks Carusoam!  Thankfully my flying skills are better than my computer skills.  Maybe you can help with this one too. 

 

Rather than add another posting, I'm just tagging on.  I flew Sunday to Arkansas from Dallas.  I fueled up on my stop and did a quick walk-around, so this definitely happened on my return trip.  Not sure if anyone has had this happen, but this access panel under the tail ripped in half somewhere between Arkansas and Dallas.  My mechanic was able to fabricate a new panel, and it didn't cause any issues, but I thought I'd share the experience.  My mechanic said it was just sheet metal screwed to sheet metal and it appears a screw or two let loose.  He's added backings so we can bolt the panels on going forward.  He's also used heavier duty panels.  Anyway, just thought I'd share.  In case anyone wants to check their panels to make sure they're sound...

Adam

I have one just like that!

I asked the local MSC to make a new one, he was too busy, so I asked if I could use his sheer and brake. He said OK. It took less than 5 min to make a new one.

I took a few days to paint it.

Edited June 9, 2020 by N201MKTurbo