I'm a little excited about this one:

[the_elkhartian]

Hi everyone, first-time topic-starter....long-time lurker. I've been obsessively reading everything on here as I am looking to buy my first plane. I've put a deposit on one and I just wanted to crowd source some wisdom from this esteemed group.

About me

I started flying when I was 15. Today I'm a ~700 hour Commercial SEL, CFI/II and I will have my MEL and MEI finished by the end of the summer. I made big career moves about 2 years ago and started flying again after a 15-year hiatus. I got burned out in various business roles and decided I wanted to be a pilot (or do something in the aviation space) so I quit  my job and finished all my ratings. I was ready to slug it out as a line instructor at American Flyers at ADS when an interesting opportunity came up at a big flight school in Arizona. More to that story, maybe I can share that some other time.

The mission

I want a capable cross-country performer that is relatively economical. I'm basically looking at the Mooney "billboard"--max speed, max efficiency. I also want something I can be proud of. I started looking at Cessna Cardinals, and I can't totally express it, but they're just sort of boring like a Cessna 172....or in the car world a Toyota Camry. A Camry is a fantastic car...I drive an overgrown Camry (Avalon)....but I don't pretend it's sexy. I wanted a little more sex appeal in my airplane. 

Reality set in, and I realize that 80% of my flying will probably be local, and with only 1 pax. It's just me and the wife. So there was a brief detour down the EAB route. I like RVs....I'd take an RV-6 through 8 any day. My 91 year-old grandfather-in-law is currently building his 5th RV in Florida (RV-7a). I have been watching, but I haven't found an RV that I love...and I have no time/interest in building one right now. I even considered an RV-12...performance of a 172, but half the operating costs. If a Cardinal = Camry, an RV-12 = BMW R1200.

At the end of the day, an airplane is meant to go far, fast. If I just wanted a light local cruiser I would probably get into gyroplanes (which is of interest to me down the road). So, I'm back at the Mooney. As a native Texas son, it's a history I can get behind and I love the community I've seen here as well as the knowledge-base and support for what are now 60 year-old airplanes. I've looked at C's, E's, F's, J's...really any of them fit my mission pretty well. I don't put the premium on mid vs short, and I'm equally indifferent on carbureted, johnson bar, etc. The biggest deal for me is I want a nice clean plane that has a panel components from this millennium. Even though I learned to fly a six pack, I fly G1000 equipped Piper and Diamond products 20-30 hours a month...and it's hard to go back to steam gauges all the time. So, to summarize my requirements list:

1. Clean mechanical, paint and interior...looks nice and is something I can feel proud of. I don't want a project right out of the gate, I want to fly an airplane.
2. Avionics from this millennium, IFR capable
3. As fast as possible (speed mods) within my sub-$100k budget
4. Autopilot

So, I've basically been looking for what everyone is looking for. There's a lot of nice stuff out there. Nothing is perfect, and even though we're in the midst of a pandemic, good stuff moves quickly. I have had a half-dozen emails, texts, phone calls that ended in "Sold yesterday!"

Enter 26Q

Perusing Mooneyspace, I fell in love with @David Lloyd 's M20C, but his wife had other plans for me ... He was kind enough to point me in a different direction. So, I looked at it and got intrigued.  I reached out to the broker. "UNDER CONTRACT, I'LL LET YOU KNOW IF ANYTHING CHANGES." 

Ugh. Buying airplanes is hard.

Well I'll be darned if the broker didn't email me yesterday and say that it was available. (Story goes: owner was trading this in on a Baron and the Baron deal fell through.) So, I've jumped on this one...the deposit is funded and the contract is under review.

Positives

• 200HP engine (Lasar STC) on the M20C airframe.
• Aspen PFD/MFD, Garmin 650, ADSB
• Nice interior, clean paint.
• Lots of other LASAR upgrades
• Flown 50-100 hours per year over the last decade (100/yr in the last 2-3 years)

Negatives

• Mid-time engine (1316 SMOH) with an older overhaul (1995)
• Paint isn't what I would pick, but it's growing on me in a retro 90s, tie-dye t-shirt sort of way.
• Brittain Autopilot....but hey, what can ya do. At least it works (per broker).
• Can't find anything about Cornerstone....the broker is associated with the current maintainer, JB Aviation Maintenance...both out of IL. But the broker has been pleasant and responsive to work with so far... @gsxrpilot are they on your list?

What happens next? 

I know the popular refrain...MSC PPI, check for corrosion, @Parker_Woodruff is working on my insurance quote, etc. Now I'm looking for other feedback as I have the weekend to get my ducks in a row:

• Does anyone know this airplane or broker?
• What is the closest/bestest MSC to Chicago/C77?
• Anybody see anything that makes you go "hmm"?
• Why has this one been sitting since March? Is the price too high? Is the paint too ugly?
• Is Johnson Bar LG better than electric LG??? (Just kidding. We don't need another thread about this...)

I really appreciate the help and feedback!

[Janat83]

One of the best equipped M20C I've ever seen, if you're gonna buy another basic airplane for $40k and bring it to this condition it'll cost you another $40-60k, if your prebuy goes well fly it right away.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

[cferr59]

Being critical, I would like to see lower engine time, a full color engine monitor, a better auto-pilot, and a paint job that doesn't look like a 1990's jet ski.  That said, I don't see the seller being all that flexible on price considering this is set up pretty well.  It has a dual Aspen and Garmin 650...  Also, why does it have a 48 gallon capacity?  My 1965 C holds 52 gallons.

[Ross Taylor]

Congrats!  We're up the hill from you, in Flag, and have an E.  With your 200HP engine, that's basically the same as what we've got...and it does very well up here at high DAs.  Our plane's at nearby KCMR in Williams and the mechanic at the field there is great.  He owns two Mooneys himself, a C and a Mustang.  Very reasonable, very knowledgeable, and close enough for you to get to for your annual and planned maintenance (he gets people from all over AZ).  Let me know when you bring that beauty (yes, I actually like that paintjob!) up to either KFLG or KCMR.  I want to see it! 

 

[the_elkhartian]

14 minutes ago, cferr59 said:

 a full color engine monitor, a better auto-pilot

Definitely the short list of upgrades once there is a reasonable AP for the C available. 

 

[MIm20c]

It looks like a nice plane and fast just sitting on the ground. I actually like the paint and it looks to be in good condition. Enjoy!

[KLRDMD]

Looks like a nice airplane at a fair price.

[Rwsavory]

Someone really spent a lot of time and money to modify this airplane.  Very impressive.  You will probably want to upgrade the autopilot eventually, but with the rest of the improvements already done it would be worth it.  

[the_elkhartian]

1 hour ago, MIm20c said:

 I actually like the paint and it looks to be in good condition. Enjoy!

I wish the N number slanted forward instead of backwards. Anybody else? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[carusoam]

Way to go WTW!

Get it locked down...
 

Don’t drag your feet...

PPI is all about saving your wallet... verify all the upgrades are done properly... (legal paperwork)

TT is all about saving your bacon... few quirks come with different planes, learn them using hands on training...

Nice to see the 65C has paint...

Looks like this bird was somebody’s forever-plane...

Also looks like you are buying an expensive panel and getting a free plane with that...  

The PPI should go smoothly...
 

Do all the homework, no short cuts... No matter how good things look on the outside...

Avoid surprises... surprises can be expensive...
 

A 200 HP M20C makes a great basis for a forever-plane...

PP thoughts only,

-a-

 

[The Other Red Baron]

Anyone know what those little handles are below the back seats? Do those seats come out via those handles?  You'll look like you're flying one of these but if I had everything on the interior I doubt I'd care.

 

[the_elkhartian]

17 minutes ago, The Other Red Baron said:

You'll look like you're flying one of these but if I had everything on the interior I doubt I'd care.

Lol! Maybe I’ll christen her the “Solo Jazz”

 

[Brian E.]

As other have said it's well equipped for the price even with the mid time price.  The paint definitely makes a statement but it is shiny!

The inside perplexes me.  Much different panel and seats than my 65C.  I have a bench seat in the back and no little handles.  I don;t see the typically C Garwin cluster and you have the engine instruments in a strip on the pilots side.  And, the heat, fresh air and parking park controls seem very different as well.

Good luck and have fun flying it!

[gsxrpilot]

13 hours ago, wingtipwalker said:

Can't find anything about Cornerstone....the broker is associated with the current maintainer, JB Aviation Maintenance...both out of IL. But the broker has been pleasant and responsive to work with so far... @gsxrpilot are they on your list?

I don't know either the broker or the shop. Not on my "list" 

A few interesting things about this airplane. It is certainly a heavily upgraded C. It looks like 1996 was the year to do some major upgrades. I didn't find everything in the logs, but May 1996 is when the engine was converted from the O360 to the IO360 and got a new prop as well. So it's a 200 HP fuel injected C. That basically makes it an E. It's also got a late model panel layout. The panel appears to be from a '80's model Mooney. It probably came out of a J or a K. It's got the angled section on the far right with engine instruments mounted there. Just like in my K. The back seats also got a major upgrade. At some point when they did the interior, they replace the entire back seat assembly with one out of a 1983 or later Mooney. These are the same removable back seats that are in my 252. That is a super nice option. The back seats are easily removable and the frame of the seat backs, folds down into the floor. The black leavers you see below the back seats are to recline the rear seat backs. My 252 has the same. I also like all the speed mods on the outside. The windshield, gap seals, cowl, etc are all very nice to see and are expensive as well.

The negatives I see are the lack of autopilot. I know C's with an autopilot are rare, but I'm on record as saying I wouldn't buy one without one. I know there are autopilots that will be available at some point, but we've been hearing that for years. Having said that, I might make an exception for this C/E. The back seat upgrade is worth a lot IMO. I would check the Useful Load. All the upgrades might have made this one a bit heavy. I don't know for sure, but I'd check. 

I think the price is high for a C without an autopilot. But if we call it an E without an autopilot then the price is a little better. If I were buying this plane, I'd finish the upgrade by getting both Aspens upgraded to MAX and removing all the round instruments. I'd also add a primary engine monitor like an EDM-900 and remove the factory engine instruments.

Finally, I'd pay someone to go through the logs with a fine tooth comb to make sure all the upgrades are one with appropriate approvals, sign-off's, etc. And order the 337 records from the FAA. All the mods should be listed there. It's a nice C... ur E... that just needs an autopilot.

[the_elkhartian]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I would check the Useful Load. All the upgrades might have made this one a bit heavy. I don't know for sure, but I'd check. 

Gross - 2575

Empty - 1715

Useful - 860

Useful w/ Full Fuel - 548

⬆️ Is that bad, good or typical?

I did confirm that the max fuel is 52 gallons. 
 

Thanks everyone! Keep tearing this one apart for me (virtually)!

[jaylw314]

13 hours ago, The Other Red Baron said:

Anyone know what those little handles are below the back seats? Do those seats come out via those handles?  You'll look like you're flying one of these but if I had everything on the interior I doubt I'd care.

Those handles unlock the climb mechanism and look identical to the back seats I have in my M20J

For the OP, I think a lot of guys here advocate sticking with short-bodies with speed mods, since the market for J's has a low supply/high demand, so they tend to be overpriced.   I suspect a similar equipped J model (with a working autopilot) would probably be in the $120-130k range, although admittedly the airframe would be newer as well.

[pirate]

Near C77 I’d call Gene at northwest flyers 06C. 847-985-9778
*Very* knowledgeable, use to be a Mooney service center, still does lots of them. 
 

 

 

[0TreeLemur]

1 hour ago, wingtipwalker said:

Gross - 2575

Empty - 1715

Useful - 860

Useful w/ Full Fuel - 548

⬆️ Is that bad, good or typical?

I did confirm that the max fuel is 52 gallons. 
 

Thanks everyone! Keep tearing this one apart for me (virtually)!

Based on what I've read watching this site over the last few years, a light C has UL of 980-1020 lb.  Most are in the 940-980 lb range.   Below 940 is on the low side.    I wonder why its so heavy?  A paint job weighs over 30 pounds.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, wingtipwalker said:

Gross - 2575

Empty - 1715

Useful - 860

Useful w/ Full Fuel - 548

⬆️ Is that bad, good or typical?

I did confirm that the max fuel is 52 gallons. 
 

Thanks everyone! Keep tearing this one apart for me (virtually)!

My 1970 electric C has 970 UL. Full fuel is 312 lb, but I generally leave ~1/2" space for expansion, giving me 300 lb fuel and 670 UL (or my favorite 470 lb of people and stuff if tanks are full).

Tanks have been 52 gals since early 60s (pre-65 I think).

[the_elkhartian]

Engine question. When they installed the IO-360 the entry says “Installed IO-360-A1B6D converted from IO-360-A3B6D”

And then one year later (at annual) they “converted it back to the IO-360-A3B6D”....

The only thing I can find is that the “prop locator bushings” are 120’ off between the two models.

What’s the significance of this?

[chriscalandro]

If the Britain system works you will be fine without the autopilot. 

[ArtVandelay]

Engine question. When they installed the IO-360 the entry says “Installed IO-360-A1B6D converted from IO-360-A3B6D”
And then one year later (at annual) they “converted it back to the IO-360-A3B6D”....
The only thing I can find is that the “prop locator bushings” are 120’ off between the two models.
What’s the significance of this?

There is a difference with how the prop governor is mounted, there is a bracket required IIRC. I can’t believe they “converted”, which means installing another engine....prop strike?

[the_elkhartian]

3 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I can’t believe they “converted”, which means installing another engine....prop strike?

Not a prop strike (as far as I can tell)...just part of the IO-360 upgrade? And I was mistaken in my earlier question...they converted it a week after the initial install. And if I'm understanding this correctly...the original engine went out as an O-360 and the same engine came back from overhaul as an IO-360. 

 

[kortopates]

The 2 io-360 serial numbers don't match - but from the log entries it's pretty clear that was just a typo.

Looks like the most upgraded C that's I've seen. Like Anthony said, it looks like a free airframe with the avionics

btw, is it 48 gal because of having bladders?

 

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[cliffy]

I'll start the bidding for your Brittain Autopilot with a bid of  HOW much do you want for it!     :-)  :-)

Looks like this could be a good airplane after a proper PPI.