Which Oil after Engine Break in -Single or Multigrade?

[brndiar]

Hi

Last year I used exclusively multigrade 15W50 Oil for my M20C (Lycoming O-360-A1D), which previous owner also used for years. In the past the plane  flew around 40 hours/year and I suppose was hangared outside. I flew last year cca 145 hours.

Now, after TBO and break-in my biggest concern is internal corrosion, because there was "significant internal corrosion" documented during repair.

I do not have hangar place at the local airfield, the nearest hangar  possibility for me is 80km away. That is why I do not expect to fly more than 40 hours this year.

Now my question- what kind of oil would you use- Multi or Single grade? I hear options, that with regard to "low hours" for internal corrosion protection single level (W 100 (SAE 50) )would be better than used 15w50 multigrade.

Thanks in advance for advice.

lg,m.

 

[jetdriven]

Philips xc 20W50 plus a healthy dose of Camguard.  That’s the best thing to cost the parts with on shutdown.  Straight W100 also works with the camguard, but XC gives you better cold start lubrication 

[Tim Jodice]

12 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Philips xc 20W50 plus a healthy dose of Camguard.  That’s the best thing to cost the parts with on shutdown.  Straight W100 also works with the camguard, but XC gives you better cold start lubrication 

+1 

If you fly year around I would use XC plus Camguard.

[Janat83]

Which part of the country you're in now, and where was the airplane when the corrosion happened??
Oil selection is based on temperature, my airplane was in Michigan for long time and old owner used 15w50 with Camguard now I brought it to Socal I'm using W100 with Camguard.

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[brndiar]

14 minutes ago, Janat83 said:

Which part of the country you're in now, and where was the airplane when the corrosion happened??
Oil selection is based on temperature, my airplane was in Michigan for long time and old owner used 15w50 with Camguard now I brought it to Socal I'm using W100 with Camguard.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
 

Hi, Austria/Deutschland with central European Klima  with normally  hot summers(20-35C,  68-95F), cool winters (-5-15C, 23-5F), frequent overcast skies in fall, winter, and early spring, couple of rainy days in sommer. But far away from salty environment. By Corrosion affected was: 2x cylinder, camshaft & lifters.

m

 

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[PTK]

@brndiar your climate and temperatures justifies multigrade. According to Shell multigrades formulated only with mineral base oils lack the necessary base oil viscosity to properly lubricate the high load points in the engine. That to me is a bigger concern and one of the reasons I trust and use Aeroshell 15W50. As far as corrosion is concerned it is mitigated by flying the airplane and changing the oil every 30-35 hours or 4 months. If the airplane will sit for extended time there’s pickling procedures prescribed by Lycoming to protect the engine. 

[Janat83]

Hi, Austria/Deutschland with central European Klima  with normally  hot summers(20-35C,  68-95F), cool winters (-5-15C, 23-5F), frequent overcast skies in fall, winter, and early spring, couple of rainy days in sommer. But far away from salty environment. By Corrosion affected was: 2x cylinder, camshaft & lifters.
m
 

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I believe in this case I'd leave the 15w50 multi graded, here in Socal we usually don't get that cold below freezing, flying your airplane regularly is what matters the most for your engine, do your oil changes every 50hrs(max) or 4 months to keep moisture and acid away from your oil, using Camguard is great specially if you don't fly much.

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[Prior owner]

The new Phillips Victory 20w50 has the Lycoming additive.

[mike20papa]

Regardless of what oil you run, best insurance is to fly the airplane every +/-10 days - even if for only .5 hours.  get the oil temp to 180 degrees.  good for the battery and even your flying skills.  do an "impossible no flap landings" ?! 

[PT20J]

I'm using Philips X/C 20W50 + CamGuard.

Aeroshell 15W50 is semi-synthetic and there is enough anecdotal evidence that it is problematic for cam wear (including my experience) that I no longer use it.

Shell and Pillips both have oils blended with LW-16702. There is a lot of confusion about this. LW-16702 is required by AD 80-04-03-R2 for certain Lycoming O-320 H engines that use automotive style lifters and had cam spalling problems. The oil is made for those engines so you don't have to add the additive. Because a lot of Lycoming engines have had cam/lifter issues, some use the LW-16702  additive (or oil with the additive) in other Lycoming engines as a prophylactic against cam distress. I have not seen any authoritative evidence that it helps with non-H engines, and I've heard plenty of laments that it did not. LW-16702 is NOT an anti-corrosive agent and it seems that most non-H engines suffer cam problems due to disuse and resulting corrosion. CamGuard is supposed to have anti-corrosion ingredients, but the mixture is a trade secret and I have not seen any real evidence that it prevents cam distress. But I use it figuring that it can't hurt and was developed by a knowledgeable person.

I currently operate a L:ycoming IO-360-A3B6 factory rebuilt with roller lifters. I broke it in with Aeroshell 100 and switched to AS 100W after about 40 hours. After about 130 hours, I switched to Phillips X/C 20W50. My oil consumption went from about 8 hrs/qt to 12+ hours/qt. I have no idea why, but it seems pretty consistent.

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[Guest]

From the Ram Aircraft website.  They don’t favour semi synthetic oils.

 

 

[PTK]

Excerpt from Shell Aviation product technical details...

“Mineral Multigrades

Mineral multigrades use a light weight mineral oil (the same as a light weight monograde oil), but include an additive called a Viscosity Index Improver. The best way to visualise this viscosity index improver is as a long chain molecule which curl up like a ball of string when cold, but then uncurl as the temperature increases.

Thus when an oil is cold, the presence of the viscosity index improver has very little effect and the oil flows well as the base oil is a low viscosity oil. As the oil heats up, the viscosity index improver uncurls with the effect that it tends to restrict the motion of the oil, or 'thickens' it, which to some extent counteracts the decrease in viscosity of the base oil. This enables the oil to support more load than would otherwise be possible.

However the viscosity of an oil which contains a viscosity index improver depends on the rate is made to flow (or sheared). It may decrease rapidly if the oil is sheared rapidly, and this decrease can be temporary or permanent.

A temporary loss in viscosity develops when high shear rates (which frequently occurs in engines when one surface moves quickly past another) force the large viscosity index improver molecules to align themselves in the direction of flow. More seriously, a permanent loss of viscosity may occur if the shear rate is sufficient to physically break the large molecules into smaller units. This can happen in oil pumps and the like. Both of these scenarios reduce the oil's viscosity and therefore the load carrying ability.

The vast majority of 20W-50 aviation multigrades on the market are mineral multigrades.

Semi-Synthetic Multigrades

Semi-Synthetic oils use a blend of mineral oil and a synthetic hydrocarbon oil.

Due to the naturally high viscosity index of the synthetic oil - it's viscosity changes less with temperature when compared to mineral oils - there is no need to add a viscosity index improver.

Another advantage of using a semi-synthetic oil is that the synthetic component of the oil has a higher thermal stability and therefore degrades at a slower rate than mineral oils. This leads to the oil both performing as an effective lubricant for longer and also producing less acidic compounds, the byproducts of oil degradation, which in turn reduces the risk of acid attack in the engine.“

 

[Tcraft938]

On 5/9/2020 at 8:30 AM, jetdriven said:

Philips xc 20W50 plus a healthy dose of Camguard.  That’s the best thing to cost the parts with on shutdown.  Straight W100 also works with the camguard, but XC gives you better cold start lubrication 

How much camguard do you add per quart?

[Bob - S50]

26 minutes ago, Tcraft938 said:

How much camguard do you add per quart?

It's listed on the Camguard bottle so you won't have to remember.

[tmo]

But the answer is 5% = 1.6 oz per qt. - conveniently the 1 pint bottle is thus good for the 12 quarts in the box.

[jetdriven]

On 5/9/2020 at 12:36 PM, PTK said:

 As far as corrosion is concerned it is mitigated by flying the airplane and changing the oil every 30-35 hours or 4 months. If the airplane will sit for extended time there’s pickling procedures prescribed by Lycoming to protect the engine. 

That is not nearly enough anymore. I know plenty of people with airplanes that fly all the time, they still open the engine up because of premature cam and lifters failure and there’s corrosion everywhere.. What does help, in addition to flying regularly, is camgaurd, and what really helps, is an engine dehydrator plugged in anytime the airplane sitting on the ground.

The pickling procedures are onerous, and expensive, and only last a certain amount of time.

[Danb]

I’m not an engine specialist, nor oil specialist. I’ve heard all the reasons I’m using the wrong oil.

Ive used AeroShell multi 15W50 since 1985, prior to camguard I used the snake oil crap avblend. Three planes later 30+ years 3500 hours or so never had a cylinder changed, never top work or other engine issues. 2000+ hours were in two J models last 1000 hours in an M model. I’ve considered changing to the better oil but my results preclude me from doing so. I had a few emails back from Mike Busch who recommended I change to the better stuff but I could not justify the change based on my small sample. BTW Mike was very nice and actually answered my questions,....Just saying..

 

[PTK]

9 hours ago, jetdriven said:

That is not nearly enough anymore. I know plenty of people with airplanes that fly all the time, they still open the engine up because of premature cam and lifters failure and there’s corrosion everywhere.. What does help, in addition to flying regularly, is camgaurd, and what really helps, is an engine dehydrator plugged in anytime the airplane sitting on the ground.

The pickling procedures are onerous, and expensive, and only last a certain amount of time.

I think it has to do with viscosity stability and the load supporting capacity of the oil while in service in the engine. How quickly it loses its viscosity due to shearing of the viscosity improvers. Mineral base multigrades are inferior in that regard and as a result their load carrying capacity diminishes quicker. The viscosity of semisynthetic Aeroshell 15W50 changes much less than mineral based. This combined with its higher thermal stability greatly slows its degradation. This results in superior load supporting capacity longer. These properties are because of the synthetic component. Combine this superior oil with frequent changes as prescribed every 30-35 hours or every 4 months results in a very happy engine. BTW I am convinced that the traditional 50 hour oil change is too long. It should be more like 30 hours or 4 months. 

[jetdriven]

You basically repeated your earlier post. And your post is like well “I feel like it is superior”.  These engines are not highly stressed, the cheapest mineral oil even single weight will do the job. I have noticed sometimes increase in oil consumption after about 45 or 50 hours. But again, it’s slightly thinner then, It doesn’t break down and it doesn’t cause lubrication- related damage. These engines do not get lubrication- related damage.  They certainly go bad from corrosion between flights.  Everybody says mine is a real sweetheart, it runs great has for years. Then  the oil analysis Iron trends up.you pull a jug, the cam has a bad lobe and 3 lifter faces. Then rust on the small ends of the rods and the crank sometimes get scrapped for pitting in a small area. And then you’ll understand after the fact what happened to you. Some of my friends planes have not flown for over 100 days. What do you think the Insides of look like?

Speaking of that a friend of mine  prop struck his plane at Oshkosh last summer. He sent the engine to the continental factory, it is a missile io-550. He flew it every 10 days or so, just like they all say to do. He gets a bill. Part of it is the crankshaft to scrap because of rust--pitting  on the front main journal. He said how could that be? I fly every ten days. I said go look at the tools in your toolbox.

[PTK]

22 hours ago, jetdriven said:

It doesn’t break down and it doesn’t cause lubrication- related damage. These engines do not get lubrication- related damage.  They certainly go bad from corrosion between flights.

I think corrosion damage is one consequence of lubrication capacity failure of the oil. The two are connected and cannot be separated. Failure of the load carrying capacity of the oil opens the door and sets the stage for corrosion. Especially in high wear and stress parts of the engine, i.e. cam to tappet interface. The cam lobes are carbonized and very tough. In contrast the lifter is not quite as tough. When oil fails here the lifter is the first to start down the road to deterioration. I am convinced that corrosion is not as elusive a phenomenon or a mystery that some make it to be. It can be greatly mitigated.
 

[PTK]

On 5/11/2020 at 9:52 AM, jetdriven said:

The pickling procedures are onerous, and expensive, and only last a certain amount of time.

Not as “onerous, and expensive” as corrosion damage! 

[McMooney]

I don't remember where the report is but according to a really good oil muckity muck, it may have been savvy Blackstone, it DOES NOT MATTTER which oil you use if the plane is flown regularly.

they ran an analysis against all the oil samples they've tested and found no significant difference.

actually it said, exxon, shell then phillips by the smallest of margins.

It very clearly stated frequency of change is more important than anything else.

 

couldn't find the original report but here's something : https://resources.savvyaviation.com//wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2011-02_slippery-stuff.pdf

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by McMooney

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, McMooney said:

I don't remember where the report is but according to a really good oil muckity muck, it may have been savvy Blackstone, it DOES NOT MATTTER which oil you use if the plane is flown regularly.

they ran an analysis against all the oil samples they've tested and found no significant difference.

actually it said, exxon, shell then phillips by the smallest of margins.

It very clearly stated frequency of change is more important than anything else.

 

couldn't find the original report but here's something : https://resources.savvyaviation.com//wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2011-02_slippery-stuff.pdf

 

This may be what you're looking for: https://www.blackstone-labs.com/about-aircraft-oils-2/

I've never seen any actual data showing that one brand is better than another for engine longevity. Likewise, I haven't seen any data showing that multi-viscosity is better or worse than single viscosity for engine longevity. Lycoming and Continental seem agnostic on the subject; to the manufacturers, oil is oil. I have heard anecdotal evidence (including the engine that was on the M20J that I purchased that went through two camshafts in 1000 hours) that Aeroshell 15W50 semi-synthetic might not be a good choice.

I have heard from a lot of folks that some engines burn less oil (and have cleaner oil) running Phillips 20W50 as opposed to Aeroshell 100W. That's been my experience. I've heard others say the opposite occurred with their engines. I think it's best to try both and stick with the one that your engine seems to like. 

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