Has anyone looked at Earth X batteries?

[Austintatious]

This could shave a lot of weight!

 

https://earthxbatteries.com/product-category/certified-aircraft

[M20F-1968]

I still have not gotten over my concerns over carrying a flashlight using lithium batteries. (Yeah, I know the ipad has a lithium battery - just wanting to limit exposure and risks).

John Breda

[gsxrpilot]

Very interesting. And I'm all for saving weight. I'd rather the weight saving be ahead of the CG and not behind it. 

I'd probably put on in my Mooney if the approval process wasn't too difficult.

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

I still have not gotten over my concerns over carrying a flashlight using lithium batteries. (Yeah, I know the ipad has a lithium battery - just wanting to limit exposure and risks).

John Breda

I have the same concern.

..and your cell phone has a lipo.

I am not sure it is realistic but I have had thoughts of what if...my cell phone starts smoking - I could toss it out the little window.  My iPad also fits out the little window.

I am not ready to go lipo for the major starter battery.

Actually for the big bore Mooney's the heavy lead acid battery in the tail is part of the balance-arm needs of W&B.

[Austintatious]

8 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

I still have not gotten over my concerns over carrying a flashlight using lithium batteries. (Yeah, I know the ipad has a lithium battery - just wanting to limit exposure and risks).

John Breda

Do not confuse Lithium ION batteries for lithium IRON batteries... Lithium IRON battery are THE MOST STABLE battery technology that exist.  They do not have a catastrophic failure ( fire/explosion) mode.

[Austintatious]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

I have the same concern.

..and your cell phone has a lipo.

I am not sure it is realistic but I have had thoughts of what if...my cell phone starts smoking - I could toss it out the little window.  My iPad also fits out the little window.

I am not ready to go lipo for the major starter battery.

Actually for the big bore Mooney's the heavy lead acid battery in the tail is part of the balance-arm needs of W&B.

Please do not confuse Lithium IRON for lithium ION.

They are completely different.

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

Please do not confuse Lithium IRON for lithium ION.

They are completely different.

It still scares me.  Lithium Ion they really screwed up In some consumer items.  I believe the FAA must have given blessing to these other technologies, in this case Lithium Iron.  But I am not chemical engineer so all I have is my spidey sense to proceed carefully which is not always founded on knowledge but rather rumor,

[dzeleski]

I run a similar LiFe battery in my race motorcycle. Ive wrecked at well over 100mph a few times and there was no fire or explosion. These types of batteries are very stable. One issue I would be concerned with is cold start. The batteries ive used usually need a bit of an amp draw for a few seconds to a minute to "wake" the battery up.

When I need to replace my current concorde I would 100% look into this further.

[Hank]

12 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Very interesting. And I'm all for saving weight. I'd rather the weight saving be ahead of the CG and not behind it. 

I'd probably put on in my Mooney if the approval process wasn't too difficult.

The battery in my C is on the firewall. Losing weight there would be nice. But I like the power and resiliency of my Concorde, second battery in 11 years is still going strong. 

[Austintatious]

Same here Dzeleski... I have been using a similar LIFE battery in my glider for years.  It is incredibly light weight.  I love to show it to people and act like it is really heavy as I hand it to them... they always end up lifting it up in the air and having a shock on their face!

[Jerry 5TJ]

Nice looking battery system with integrated Battery Management System. 

I have talked to several of the vendors of aircraft Li batteries.  This one is representative of the offerings.  The price is good for the capacity.  

This battery shouldn’t be installed in the engine compartment (as in the C model) due to temperature limits.   

The battery’s limitation on alternator output of 80A could be a problem for newer long-body Mooney planes which have 100 amp alternators. 

I am looking forward to a 28V 15A-H version becoming available.  

[Yooper Rocketman]

I just bought two new Concorde's for my Lancair and wish I had done more research before buying them.  Although I got 7-8 years on my Concorde's in my Mooney Rocket, the dual batteries were mostly for weight / CG (mounted in the tail cone), not amperage need, so they were still sufficient as they lost capacity.  On my Lancair, my batteries were 4-5 years old and and had a low voltage start attempt a couple months ago and was able to abort the start.  a Low voltage start is a recipe for a "HOT START", which on a turbine will cost you A LOT OF MONEY.  I got an APU start and quickly ordered replacement batteries without doing any research on the Earth X batteries.

I'm completing another IVPT and this one has no room for a second battery, so we were concerned about the life and voltage drop during starts.  I did EXTENSIVE research on this new technology, talking with a ton of experimental pilots using them.  One particular owner from Australia told me he did extensive research for years, and found the failure rate for the old technology batteries was equal too or greater than these new Earth X batteries.  The weight savings is absolutely astonishing, and the size is smaller too.   We were able to increase the starting amperage beyond two of my new Concorde's, with two 24 volt units fitting in a slightly modified battery box intended for ONE CONCORDE, at less weight than ONE Concorde.

Don't discount these batteries!!!  If I could recoup most my investment in my new 24 volt Concorde's, I would seriously consider swapping out for the Earth X batteries with what I now have learned.

Tom

 

[aviatoreb]

29 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I just bought two new Concorde's for my Lancair and wish I had done more research before buying them.  Although I got 7-8 years on my Concorde's in my Mooney Rocket, the dual batteries were mostly for weight / CG (mounted in the tail cone), not amperage need, so they were still sufficient as they lost capacity.  On my Lancair, my batteries were 4-5 years old and and had a low voltage start attempt a couple months ago and was able to abort the start.  a Low voltage start is a recipe for a "HOT START", which on a turbine will cost you A LOT OF MONEY.  I got an APU start and quickly ordered replacement batteries without doing any research on the Earth X batteries.

I'm completing another IVPT and this one has no room for a second battery, so we were concerned about the life and voltage drop during starts.  I did EXTENSIVE research on this new technology, talking with a ton of experimental pilots using them.  One particular owner from Australia told me he did extensive research for years, and found the failure rate for the old technology batteries was equal too or greater than these new Earth X batteries.  The weight savings is absolutely astonishing, and the size is smaller too.   We were able to increase the starting amperage beyond two of my new Concorde's, with two 24 volt units fitting in a slightly modified battery box intended for ONE CONCORDE, at less weight than ONE Concorde.

Don't discount these batteries!!!  If I could recoup most my investment in my new 24 volt Concorde's, I would seriously consider swapping out for the Earth X batteries with what I now have learned.

Tom

 

Can you say that part in the middle again? You are building a second IVPT?  Why do you want a second airplane?

[Skates97]

6 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Can you say that part in the middle again? You are building a second IVPT?  Why do you want a second airplane?

If one is good, two is better!

[PTK]

A weight savings of approx. 26 lbs lighter than the Concorde is significant. The life as published on their brochure is 8 years which in reality will most likely be less than that. Let’s say it’s closer to 6 years. And cost is 900$.

Comparing that to my Concorde, it lasted me 11+ years at 300$. So the Concorde lasted me approx. twice as long at 1/3 the cost. 
So as I see it cost has to decrease and/or life has to increase for me to consider the earthx. 26 lbs is significant but the 3x increase in cost and decrease life in half is more significant.

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

16 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Can you say that part in the middle again? You are building a second IVPT?  Why do you want a second airplane?

A friend from Ohio had one 90% complete, needing mostly instrument panel and wiring completed (he thought).  My best friend for a long time, Steve, 27 year hangar partner, fellow Mooney owner, and the guy that did MOST of my wiring, agreed to take this project in and finish up the electrical.  Once it arrived to my hangar, I found there was still a lot of other work required AND he added a full TKS de-ice system, the engine getting pulled off and checked by our engine shop (his engine had been built by another less than capable shop), and various other upgrades.  About halfway complete with the electrical work, my best friend died of an unexpected heart attack.   I'm sure I posted that back in November when I lost him....... it was pretty traumatic for me and his family.  Fittingly, he was a NAM vet and died on Veterans Day.  

I'm fully capable of the wiring aspect, just hadn't planned on doing it alone.

Tom

[Rwsavory]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

The battery in my C is on the firewall. Losing weight there would be nice. But I like the power and resiliency of my Concorde, second battery in 11 years is still going strong. 

Agreed.  When you take into account the added cost, as well as installation, 337, etc., those of us with one 12v battery are not going to come out ahead.

[Yooper Rocketman]

13 minutes ago, PTK said:

A weight savings of approx. 26 lbs lighter than the Concorde is significant. The life as published on their brochure is 8 years which in reality will most likely be less than that. Let’s say it’s closer to 6 years. And cost 900$.

Comparing that to my Concorde, it lasted me 11+ years at 300$. The Concorde lasted me approx.. twice as long at 1/3 the cost. 
Cost has to decrease and/or life gas to increase for me to consider the earthx. 26 lbs is significant but the increase in cost and decrease in life is more significant.

 

I won't discount or dispute your thoughts or rational.  But, they are clearly getting more than 8 years on these batteries.  Also, our forum moderator for the Lancair Talk forum is a dealer.  We are getting them for significantly less than what you noted above.

Tom

[PTK]

10 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I won't discount or dispute your thoughts or rational.  But, they are clearly getting more than 8 years on these batteries.  Also, our forum moderator for the Lancair Talk forum is a dealer.  We are getting them for significantly less than what you noted above.

Tom

That’s good to know. I was merely going by their published figures on their website. 

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

A friend from Ohio had one 90% complete, needing mostly instrument panel and wiring completed (he thought).  My best friend for a long time, Steve, 27 year hangar partner, fellow Mooney owner, and the guy that did MOST of my wiring, agreed to take this project in and finish up the electrical.  Once it arrived to my hangar, I found there was still a lot of other work required AND he added a full TKS de-ice system, the engine getting pulled off and checked by our engine shop (his engine had been built by another less than capable shop), and various other upgrades.  About halfway complete with the electrical work, my best friend died of an unexpected heart attack.   I'm sure I posted that back in November when I lost him....... it was pretty traumatic for me and his family.  Fittingly, he was a NAM vet and died on Veterans Day.  

I'm fully capable of the wiring aspect, just hadn't planned on doing it alone.

Tom

Tom, that is really fantastic.  The world needs more friends like you.

Hey, let me be the first here to say - write my name down!  If you ever sell your airplane, call me up!  I can't afford it now, but hopefully in 50 or 70 or 100 years when you are finally ready to hang up your keys, and if I am still wanting to go zoom, then by then I will be able to afford to buy that thing off you!

Erik

[aviatoreb]

28 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

If one is good, two is better!

Well now that you put it that way, its obvious and I agree.

[David Lloyd]

Some of the new lithium batteries have their own management system as pointed out.  A year or so ago someone over on the Vans Airforce site put a new battery in their RV and did not fully understand everything they needed.  Hot start, ran the battery down, started, had high charge rate and voltage.  Battery took itself off line, voltage soared, cooked some avionics.  Battery did as designed, protecting itself.  Can't just take out old tech and replace with new tech without making certain everything will work together.

[bfreelove]

I have some experience with the Earth X batteries.  We ran one for a year in our race airplane (after previously using some other more scary lithium batteries).  They are fairly light, and has a nice onboard BMS that seems to do a pretty good job although I'm not sure how well it charges using just the aircraft alternator.  We would occasionally get charging error indications, which was less than comfortable to see on cross countries (the battery was mounted in the cockpit by your feet). We would mostly need to ground charge it using a lithium specific charger.  Admittedly it had a hard life with us, lots of repeated hot starts with short flight duration, high G, high vibration and heat.  Also you're not supposed to jump start them.  After our team mechanic filmed a failure of a LiFe battery from another project he was on  (it had been dead shorted and pumped out toxic white smoke for about 20 mins), the race series banned all Lithium batteries.  I think overall they are quite good and probably safe, but I don't think I would want one in my Mooney.  

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Tom, that is really fantastic.  The world needs more friends like you.

Hey, let me be the first here to say - write my name down!  If you ever sell your airplane, call me up!  I can't afford it now, but hopefully in 50 or 70 or 100 years when you are finally ready to hang up your keys, and if I am still wanting to go zoom, then by then I will be able to afford to buy that thing off you!

Erik

Hey Buddy, get in line !

[afward]

4 hours ago, David Lloyd said:

Some of the new lithium batteries have their own management system as pointed out.  A year or so ago someone over on the Vans Airforce site put a new battery in their RV and did not fully understand everything they needed.  Hot start, ran the battery down, started, had high charge rate and voltage.  Battery took itself off line, voltage soared, cooked some avionics.  Battery did as designed, protecting itself.  Can't just take out old tech and replace with new tech without making certain everything will work together.

If one reads the ICA linked from the EarthX page, there's a sentence on page 2 (end of the third paragraph): "Additionally, the aircraft charging system must have an over voltage protection device (OVPD)."  They don't go into why, but the short version is they battery _cannot_ sink an over-volt event, whereas a lead-acid battery not just can, but does.

The Vans Airforce guys discussed using crowbar circuits for this.  That's probably the simplest, though if someone knows of a voltage-sensing circuit breaker we can use...