N201MKTurbo Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 5 minutes ago, MikeOH said: Hmm, what is the point of doing this? You are already IN the airplane; they just told you how to shut the door for gawd's sake. You're sure not checking for water in the sump! No, you are draining the water out of the sump. Quote
MikeOH Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 Just now, N201MKTurbo said: No, you are draining the water out of the sump. Maybe, but that is NOT what I said. You are most certainly NOT CHECKING for that water. Per the POH cite above you are already ensconced in the plane at that point. Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 1 minute ago, MikeOH said: Maybe, but that is NOT what I said. You are most certainly NOT CHECKING for that water. Per the POH cite above you are already ensconced in the plane at that point. You are not checking for anything, you draining any water that is in there. Quote
MikeOH Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 (edited) Just now, N201MKTurbo said: You are not checking for anything, you draining any water that is in there. Sigh...what's the point? I want to KNOW if there is water. That's the point of sumping the tanks, isn't it? If I see water I'm damn sure going to do something about it! The POH excerpt to pull the drain after you're already in the plane is pointless. Edited April 25, 2020 by MikeOH Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 Just now, MikeOH said: Sigh...what's the point? I want to KNOW if there is water. That's the point of sumping the tanks, isn't it? If I see water I'm damn sure going to do something about it! The POH excerpt to pull the drain after you're already in the plane is pointless. Ok, leave all that crud in there, no skin off my nose. Quote
MikeOH Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 Just now, N201MKTurbo said: Ok, leave all that crud in there, no skin off my nose. Wait, I thought we were talking about WATER? Quote
M20F-1968 Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 Can someone who knows the mechanics of H&E fuel selector and sump explain the following: 1) What is the Volume of the "sump" being drained 2) If the fuel selector is on "R" and you pull the sump ring, are you draining the "sump" and part of the Right fuel line? The same question applies when having the fuel selector of "L" will you be draining the "sump" and part of the L fuel line. 3) Similarly, when you are pulling the sump ring with the valve on "Off", I assume you are draining the "sump" only. I ask about the sump volume since if it were very small, it would be difficult to check for water unless you caught what you drained in a collection vial like you do with the tanks. Is the intention to drain the sump and R and L fuel lines which may have water. If so, then you must pull the sump ring twice, once for R and once for L (which is what I have been doing) It seems that it would be best to check the tanks first, insure no water, and then sump R and L. And be sure to check that the sump and drains do not leak before getting onto the cockpit. John Breda 1 Quote
MikeOH Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 Just now, M20F-1968 said: Can someone who knows the mechanics of H&E fuel selector and sump explain the following: 1) What is the Volume of the "sump" being drained 2) If the fuel selector is on "R" and you pull the sump ring, are you draining the "sump" and part of the Right fuel line? The same question applies when having the fuel selector of "L" will you be draining the "sump" and part of the L fuel line. 3) Similarly, when you are pulling the sump ring with the valve on "Off", I assume you are draining the "sump" only. I ask about the sump volume since if it were very small, it would be difficult to check for water unless you caught what you drained in a collection vial like you do with the tanks. Is the intention to drain the sump and R and L fuel lines which may have water. If so, then you must pull the sump ring twice, once for R and once for L (which is what I have been doing) It seems that it would be best to check the tanks first, insure no water, and then sump R and L. And be sure to check that the sump and drains do not leak before getting onto the cockpit. John Breda I think your logic is flawless. However, the POH cite above hardly describes anything close to that process. In fact, it is in a bolded section AFTER the pre-flight checklist. It's AFTER telling you how to shut and lock the door, and it doesn't mention even remotely how long to drain, let alone which tank. Cliffy's comment about crud and at annual (which likely doesn't happen, unfortunately), I'm going to periodically position a decent size jar that is greater than the sump and line volume, and drain for long enough to fill it. THAT would be a worthwhile check; I can look for crud and all that water that is supposedly lurking in there. I'm sure NOT going to do that before every flight and fill-up. Which is likely why the POH does NOT have it as part of the check list itself. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 Doc John, See if this helps answer some of your questions... 1) The volume of the gascolator / separator is about a 1/2 cup... ( I got this from Rich below...) 2) The volume of the fuel exiting the separator, depends on how long you have the ring pulled... 3) there are four entrances or exits to the separator... left tank right tank drain line going to the engine... 4) The valve selects which line will get emptied... L or R 5) If the valve is in the off position... a few drips may escape the separator... until a vacuum forms... 6) If the tank sumps have no water in them... it is less likely that any water will have made a home in the separator... 7) Once you find water in the tank sumps... all the more reason to pay extra attention to what is leaving the separator... 8) Water will inevitably make its way to the separator and hold up there... 9) every time the fuel caps get opened with morning dew, or after it rains... that water wants to go somewhere... 10) the bottom corner, lower than the sump drain, of the tanks can hold a few tablespoons of water, in some Mooney tanks... 11) the lines entering from the tanks are above the screen... 12) the drain is near the bottom of the separator... but not in the separator... see the pic above for added detail... 12.5) the line going to the engine, is below the screen... 13) what leaves the separator is going to be mostly fuel... and things that float around in fuel... (near same density) 14) solid dirt and rust falls to the bottom of the separator and can only leave by taking it apart at annual usually... 15) when taking the bottom off the separator of my M20C... I would usually find dirty water and rust particles... that had settled to the bottom... my fuel tank’s fuel necks were made of mild steel... that rusted through. The plane lived outside... water was a constant battle... 16) Mooney life without MS is really tough... No Mike, for some reason... Mooney never wrote this much detail anywhere... we couldn’t afford it. They couldn’t sell it... What you do with such fine information is up to you... but now you know... Best regards, -a- Quote
N201MKTurbo Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 It is designed to trap any water that makes it out of the tank. It will hold about 1/2 cup. This water will not flush through the gascolator until it is full of water. When you drain it you restore its full capacity to trap water. Quote
MikeOH Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 @carusoam I made it quite clear what I was going to do with the information. 1 Quote
MikeOH Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 3 minutes ago, Matt_AZ said: 1977 M20C Good thing I have a 1970 M20F...the lawyers weren't swarming at that point, apparently Quote
carusoam Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 Hmmmmm.... What would happen if the caps were left off in a rain storm.... ...and a gallon of water entered both tanks... ... and the sun came out.... and evaporated some of the water...and the cool air allowed condensation of the evaporation of some water... ... and the pilot didn’t expect there to be water... ... and he started to drain the separator... left, and right.... ... the condensation is raining down from the top of the tanks... ... water / fuel is trying to leave the tanks... ... and a wave of water droplets gets pulled into the separator... along with dust and grass and tons of pollen.... Just when you think water can’t get in... somebody misadjusts your fuel caps... and water leaks in... on the day you don’t put the plane in the hangar... I pull the ring twice because crap happens... I probably do this because I learned a few things from the mechanics... that are probably not written in the book for pilots... Then you see the most modern POH for an M20C includes even more detail... I also take off with one notch of flaps, the T/O position in my plane... and landing with full flaps... just because it is better for me... Water has such a remote possibility of getting to the separator... but, it does... without explanation... or warning... PP thoughts only, not the thought police... Best regards, -a- Quote
Hank Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 38 minutes ago, MikeOH said: Good thing I have a 1970 M20F...the lawyers weren't swarming at that point, apparently What Matt posted could be from the Owners Manual to my 1970 M20C, it's verbatim the same including that wonderful sketch Quote
RLCarter Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 1 hour ago, MikeOH said: I'm sure NOT going to do that before every flight and fill-up. Which is likely why the POH does NOT have it as part of the check list itself. There are many things on my checklist that isn't in the POH, it's all about safety...If you choice to ignore any or all of YOUR checklist, go ahead....... It's been pointed out that it IS in the POH. And yes I have found crap in the gascolator in the past on multiple aircraft, Quote
MikeOH Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 Just now, RLCarter said: There are many things on my checklist that isn't in the POH, it's all about safety...If you choice to ignore any or all of YOUR checklist, go ahead....... It's been pointed out that it IS in the POH. And yes I have found crap in the gascolator in the past on multiple aircraft, It's in SOME POHs. And, appears to be in ALL newer POHs. That fact begs the question: are all those owners of old aircraft suppose to go buy the latest edition of their models POH and follow it? I mean, that would be the SAFEST thing to do, right? And, if they don't then they must be dangerous pilots like me. Yeah, no one's said that..but it's dripping off your prose. Good night. Quote
carusoam Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 20 minutes ago, MikeOH said: It's in SOME POHs. And, appears to be in ALL newer POHs. That fact begs the question: are all those owners of old aircraft suppose to go buy the latest edition of their models POH and follow it? I mean, that would be the SAFEST thing to do, right? And, if they don't then they must be dangerous pilots like me. Yeah, no one's said that..but it's dripping off your prose. Good night. I had the same question when I got my M20C in Y2K... My plane came with very little documentation beyond the full set of logs... So I called the factory to ask what to use for a 65C... I spoke with some guy named Bill Wheat... on the phone. The operator knew exactly who I should speak with... I had no idea who to ask, what to ask, or who the Bill Wheat actually was... Bill recommended two things... the 65Cs owner’s manual because FAA laws are as outdated as anything else in aviation... and the 1977 M20C’s POH.... because it was appropriate for my 1965 M20C, and has more data and more complete procedures written... If the C’s manual got updated to match typical 90s Mooneys docs... it would have 300 valuable and reliable pages in it... 3X the 77C’s... To throw a wrench in the works... newer POH often get some things omitted... Soft field T/O performance charts have been removed in the most recent ovation ones... It was a while later when I found Bill’s matching signature on the AW line in my first airframe log... he signed it after he was the test flight engineer doing the QC test flights... 35 years after signing my doc... I’m talking to him on the phone.... 20 years later... I’m reveling in the history... relaying what he told me... Its unfortunate that the full spirit of what is being typed doesn’t get received equally well on the other end... written words need a whole bunch of extra talent To get the whole message through... For a quick look... there are a few updated POHs in the download section to see many of the updates.... Best regards, -a- 3 Quote
Culver LFA Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 3 hours ago, M20F-1968 said: Can someone who knows the mechanics of H&E fuel selector and sump explain the following: 1) What is the Volume of the "sump" being drained About an ounce of fuel drains out of the cup when removed for screen inspection/cleaning. 1 1 Quote
cliffy Posted April 25, 2020 Report Posted April 25, 2020 A couple of things to think about Back when- I had the "advantage" of beginning my flying in the early 60s, A looong time ago Things were done different back then. Our airplanes are considered "Placard" airplanes where every warning or caution the pilot needed was derived from REQUIRED placards in the airplane. Just look at the TCDS sheet and see what all the required placards are in our airplanes. In fact, these are items required to be checked on any annual inspection to make sure they are still there. The only EXTRA book we had was an Owner's Manual or Handbook. In those days. not very detailed. I still have a 1962 Cessna 150 manual that might have 20 pages. Then along came the lawyers and law suits and the FAA also decided to up the ante on what was needed to inform pilots on how to operate their airplanes and we now have POHs Pilot Operating Handbooks. The contents of POHS dramatically increased the information to the pilot. Also check the evolution of Maintenance Manuals. The first ones for Mooneys have very little detailed information. Later the J model manual became fairly detailed on how to do things. If one has no knowledge of the evolution of manuals then they will not appreciate or have certain knowledge of items others may have. Learning to fly today is far more complicated than it was in 1962 BUT if what you are given is a manual from 1962 one might think it is gospel if there is no supporting history to go along with it. You are required to operate to the manual, handbook or POH that your airplane came with but you can always read the latest manual for better information. 3 Quote
Woodpile Posted September 23, 2020 Report Posted September 23, 2020 On 4/23/2020 at 10:16 PM, Andy95W said: @Htmlkid- I've never seen a Mooney factory reference that says that sump was supposed to be drained every flight. Maybe they changed the Manuals in the 1970's. I don't drain mine every flight, far from it. It's more of an every-once-in-a-while thing. The rubber seal in that thing is a pain to replace and if you pull the ring too hard, you can damage the mechanism. Besides, water is going to drain from the wing sumps first. The one time I had water in my tank I definitely drained the sump and line. Other than that time, I've never gotten water out of the gascolator. Anyway, not much liquid really comes out, unlike the stream you get from a high wing Cessna. So, mine is leaking out the top - I presume I need to replace the painful seal. Just o-rings? Pull all 8 screws and pop it out from the top? Any tips appreciated. Quote
carusoam Posted September 23, 2020 Report Posted September 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Woodpile said: So, mine is leaking out the top - I presume I need to replace the painful seal. Just o-rings? Pull all 8 screws and pop it out from the top? Any tips appreciated. What is yours leaking out the top? There are two Orings on each fuel cap... This guy can point you towards new Orings for your fuel caps... @OSUAV8TER The hidden Oring is the one that people forget or don’t know to check... Then there is a procedure to properly set up the fuel cap... if it isn’t set up correctly, it leaks... Fun fact... improperly set up fuel caps will leak air out the top.... you win’t know until it is raining outside while flying.... if you’re tanks are full to the top.... you might get some blue stains running from the leak... PP thoughts only, -a- Quote
Woodpile Posted September 25, 2020 Report Posted September 25, 2020 Sorry, not the fuel caps, leaking on my carpet from the tank selector lever. Just enough to leave a bit of fuel moisture. I assume there is an o-ring to replace on the lever. I didn't find any o-rings or seals listed in the part manual drawing. Quote
carusoam Posted September 25, 2020 Report Posted September 25, 2020 16 minutes ago, Woodpile said: Sorry, not the fuel caps, leaking on my carpet from the tank selector lever. Just enough to leave a bit of fuel moisture. I assume there is an o-ring to replace on the lever. I didn't find any o-rings or seals listed in the part manual drawing. There is an OH service for the fuel selector switch... Kind of a complex device... it is a small part of the gascolator, screen, sump, drain thing... Check in with Dan at Lasar for details... The problem with the leaky fuel valve, aside from the flammable blue liquid released where the hot air supply can evaporate it.... When the engine is not running, the blue liquid leaks out... not much at first... When the engine is running, Air, that has a much lower viscosity, is forming lots of bubbles in your fuel line... not very noticeable at first... If you have a FF gauge... the air bubbles get counted as fuel used... the air gets separated and vented overboard... So... there are reasons to get that fixed... and a route of how to get that fixed... Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Woodpile Posted September 25, 2020 Report Posted September 25, 2020 I just found an article that says LASAR repairs the seals. It implies there is an o-ring at the top, but I don't get the impression they think it can be replaced by a mechanic. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.