So I just read all of the fatal M20F crash reports

[MooneyMitch]

Just for the record, I have not posted anything on this particular thread.   Someone else is accidentally posting under my account.  I know this happens sometimes as I have done it myself.  So, just make sure you check that you are logged in under your own account prior to posting.

Have Mooney will travel!

[John Pleisse]

I will fly at night XC..no issues VFR. My IFR mins are 700-1, no night, no circle to land. I have had these mins since 1998 when I got my instrument ticket and they have served me well. I have never changed them or busted them. In your M-20 F stats, this would also mitigate significant risk in the already low stat of 1 in 10.

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: Hank

Hmmm . . . parker's a popular guy today! But I'm me, and I fly my [single-engine] Mooney at night, from the Carolinas to WV and back. VFR with flight following, no problem; on an IFR flight plan, no problem. In IMC? Probably not, but it hasn't come up yet.

[fantom]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

[fantom]

Oh, and congrats to Parker for earning three more letters for his pilots licence....MES....well done! 

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: fantom

Oh, and congrats to Parker for earning three more letters for his pilots licence....MES....well done! 

[carusoam]

Fantom,

 

Nice job.  This thread needs some creep....

 

Congrats Parker.

 

Best regards,

 

-a-

[aviatoreb]

Quote: WardHolbrook

Is it really not a problem or have you just not had any problems? There are plenty of areas that I wouldn't overfly in a single under day VMC. It comes down to being able to see to survive when the inevitable occurs. For me, the precudes a lot of SE ops such as wide-spread LIFR and most night ops. Don't take me wrong, I'm not afraid of losing an engine (note the Glider and CFI-G ratings in my signature) but I am afraid of putting myself in a position where the outcome is totally dependant upon luck. That's just my operational style. Of course your mileage my vary. 

[aviatoreb]

Quote: fantom

[aviatoreb]

Quote: fantom

[DaV8or]

I too avoid night, Hard IMC, mountainous terrain, large bodies of water, large forrests and dense urban areas. This doesn't mean I won't fly over these things or at night, I just minimize my time there and will go out of my way (not always direct) if it allows me better options. In the case of night, I plan around it most times unless there a super compelling reason to go.

[Kwixdraw]

One of those recent M20f fatalities was a buddy of mine. It appears he had the personal airliner thing going on in his noggin. Called work and said he was going to be about 4 hours late coming in. Called his dad and said he was having some engine problems after possibly getting some water in his fuel. Must have thought he had the problem solved (though I don't know how he might have determined that) and took off with his fiancee on board. Had an engine problem on take off and tried the impossible turn. Not a good result.  Just err on the side of caution and you'll stay much safer.

[orangemtl]

A few self-imposed absolutes that I hope to never, EVER break:

1. If I absolutely HAVE to get there, I'm not piloting the aircraft.

2. Nice, big, rounded Grandma patterns where possible/safe.  Square corners are for making beds. 

3. You never find out what your absolute limits are, until you exceed them. When it comes to flying, why bother?  The aircraft and the laws of physics really, really don't care who you are, nor how much your family enjoys your company.

4. Avoid interesting weather.

5. Excess fuel is good fuel.

6. Don't let testosterone make your go/no go decisions for you. Be boring, and live long.

Yes, these are the words of a low time pilot, but NOT a low time person.  Sometimes it's worthwhile taking risks, or cutting corners. Not in the air.

[DaV8or]

Quote: orangemtl

A few self-imposed absolutes that I hope to never, EVER break:

1. If I absolutely HAVE to get there, I'm not piloting the aircraft.

2. Nice, big, rounded Grandma patterns where possible/safe.  Square corners are for making beds. 

3. You never find out what your absolute limits are, until you exceed them. When it comes to flying, why bother?  The aircraft and the laws of physics really, really don't care who you are, nor how much your family enjoys your company.

4. Avoid interesting weather.

5. Excess fuel is good fuel.

6. Don't let testosterone make your go/no go decisions for you. Be boring, and live long.

Yes, these are the words of a low time pilot, but NOT a low time person.  Sometimes it's worthwhile taking risks, or cutting corners. Not in the air.

[Jeff_S]

Quote: orangemtl

A few self-imposed absolutes that I hope to never, EVER break:

1. If I absolutely HAVE to get there, I'm not piloting the aircraft.

2. Nice, big, rounded Grandma patterns where possible/safe.  Square corners are for making beds. 

3. You never find out what your absolute limits are, until you exceed them. When it comes to flying, why bother?  The aircraft and the laws of physics really, really don't care who you are, nor how much your family enjoys your company.

4. Avoid interesting weather.

5. Excess fuel is good fuel.

6. Don't let testosterone make your go/no go decisions for you. Be boring, and live long.

Yes, these are the words of a low time pilot, but NOT a low time person.  Sometimes it's worthwhile taking risks, or cutting corners. Not in the air.

[aviatoreb]

Quote: Jeff_S

My only reason for replying to this post was that I noted the author flies an Acclaim...and I thought those birds were MADE for interesting weather!  

[FloridaMan]

I just stumbled onto this post from 9 months before I took delivery of my m20f and four four years before the engine quit at 200ft. The strategy I had planned months before buying the airplane worked out for me when I had to put it down. 

[Austintatious]

On 9/5/2011 at 9:59 PM, MooneyMitch said:

I haven't done that much research but it sounds like many preventable fatalities. Flying into conditions above ones ability....what can I say? As far as the stall/spin, I am guessing that they all occurred turning base to final. We are told to fly our Mooneys "by the numbers" of 100/90/80. Good advice if the pattern is flown properly. Remember that in landing configuration with gear down and full flaps the stall speed jumps up to 89mph in a 60 degree bank. If the pattern is too tight and you force that turn to final with full flaps and slowing from 90 to 80...thats a bad recipe. I keep my patterns a little on the wider side to ensure that I will not be one of those stats.

IMHO... saying the stall speed jumps to 89 MPH in that config at 60 degree bank is a little deceptive.  Reason being that his would only be true if you hold altitude in the turn.  You can bank 90 degrees and not increase your load factor, you just have to give up altitude.

beware bottom rudder!

 

[M016576]

10 hours ago, Austintatious said:

IMHO... saying the stall speed jumps to 89 MPH in that config at 60 degree bank is a little deceptive.  Reason being that his would only be true if you hold altitude in the turn.  You can bank 90 degrees and not increase your load factor, you just have to give up altitude.

beware bottom rudder!

 

Very true.  but you’re still “off the chart” for stall speed, which is where an indication of AoA would come in handy.

skidding here, definitely a bad idea!

[Herlihy Brother]

Before i bought the aerostar (aka the mooney twin, aka the finest twin ever built), I took a ride in a rocket for sale.  The retired airline pilot coached my landing instructed: "no more than a standard rate turn in the pattern."

That safeguard has stuck with me for over 10 years and counting..

Another 90+ yo wwII veteran c310 twin flyer told my on my final goodbye to him, may he rip,  at the airfield, Fresno airpark,  "Don't do a hollywood takeoff john...."

 

I don't know why these rules aren't carved in stone like Yahweh's 10 chapters given to us through Moses, or the three gun safety rules (and all mooney owners, having proven ourselves by our aircraft choice, are undoubtedly packing), but they should be.

 

Here's three cheers to none of us stalling on the turn to final, or the yank and bank on takeoff, agreed?

 

 

 

 

[FloridaMan]

You have to make a quick turn at the end of runway 22 at KTPF. 

[steingar]

I'd sooner go around rather than yank and and bank at low energy and low altitude.  And I hate going around.

[Marauder]

6 hours ago, Herlihy Brother said:

 The retired airline pilot coached my landing instructed: "no more than a standard rate turn in the pattern."

Another 90+ yo wwII veteran c310 twin flyer told my on my final goodbye to him, may he rip,  at the airfield, Fresno airpark,  "Don't do a hollywood takeoff john...."

 

I don't know why these rules aren't carved in stone like Yahweh's 10 chapters given to us through Moses, or the three gun safety rules (and all mooney owners, having proven ourselves by our aircraft choice, are undoubtedly packing), but they should be.

I will tell you why. For every logical rule out there, their counterparts exist, like: "Hold my beer and watch this".

[co2bruce]

There is no reason to have to make a 60 degree turn, especially in the pattern. Stay ahead of the aircraft. If you overshoot final GO AROUND. My instructor who flies professionally always says the passengers don't want to hear power changes, RPM changes or feel anything like extra G forces. We should all fly like professionals. 

[Releew]

Really...Come on!  Don't think so!

You say....

"The Mooney's glide ratio is way better than the Skyhawks or Warriors, you don't need to be right on top of the runway on downwind to be able to glide in, in the event of an engine failure.  And engine failures on landing are far less common than stall/spin accidents." 

I have had an engine out in a M20C.  It was like going over a hump on a roller coaster.  It took instantaneous back pressure and trimming at the same time to get to a comfortable glide speed.  Got the engine to restart after about 60 seconds... which felt like an eternity.

Don't kid yourself....  They drop like a freaking ROCK .  Stay high....stay alive.

Rick