Heated prop and alcohol windshield

[jlunseth]

I have the hot prop, it came with the aircraft, and I am glad of it because on the very rare occasions when I inadvertently wander into ice I have the choice of keeping and actually using the engine, which is a good thing if you are carrying ice because if it happens long enough you will need all the power you can get.  I keep my hot prop maintained and check that both sides are warming during every pre-flight.  The first indication of ice if you can't actually see the wing, is a 10 kt. drop in airspeed and it descends from there absent more power.  That said, the hot prop is like buying a ticket on the Titanic and thinking to bring your own life vest just in case you need one and there aren't enough.  Then you can spend the rest of your life in 28dF water thinking of what to do next?  

PS someone said there were a bunch of FIKI Bravos on controller.com.  I don't think so. I think there are one or two, the others are Bravos but not FIKI certified.  The ad should say "TKS FIKI" or "TKS Certified Known Ice" or something similar.  If it just says "TKS equipped" or similar, expect an inadvertent ice system.

Edited March 5, 2020 by jlunseth

[GeeBee]

12 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Well, there are some things mixed up here.  It is correct that there is no such thing as TKS with a hot prop.  A hot prop is electrical warming boots on.the prop.  TKS uses a “slinger” system, tubes that squirt TKS fluid onto the prop. The TKS system uses boots with grooves to direct the flow of the deicing fluid out over the prop if I recall correctly, but they are not hot boots.  If you have TKS you can’t have hot boots, you have TKS boots.  One or the other. There is no STC that I know of for a hot windshield on a Mooney.  I had a friend who had one on a Malibu, but I don’t know of one for a Mooney.  It pretty much wrecks your aerodynamic shape, it is a second plate that goes on the outside of the windshield in front of the pilot.  

It is correct that certified FIKI TKS requires “dual everything.” The 231 does not have dual alternators or batteries, and TKS can be fitted to a 231 for north of 70k, but it is for flight into inadvertent icing only, not Flight Into Known Icing.  

Somewhere southeast of Des Moines at about 22k I flew for about ten seconds through the very top of a cloud.  The aircraft was slammed with ice, including the windshield.  There was not much in terms of buildup because the duration was so short, but it was clear ice, all over everywhere. If I had been in those conditions for minutes instead of seconds I hate to think what the outcome would have been.  I immediately diverted out of the conditions.  The defroster was no help.  I have also picked up ice during a summer descent that left pretty quickly as I got to lower altitudes, but again, the defroster was no help.  Don’t depend on your defroster for de-icing and don’t expect that if you get into icing, there can only be a little bit.  In a wringing wet cloud top you can get fire hosed.

Your defroster is of no help at altitude, but what about when you were on approach? You should not depend on it, but I have yet to fly in any conditions in a light plane were I could not clear the windshield with a defroster by the time I was on approach. Now I have opaqued some windshields on jets, with all the windshield heat in the world,  but those are not conditions I would put a light airplane.  IOW if you can't clear the windshield with defrost in a light plane by the time you are on approach, you made a bad dispatch decision.

 

[jlunseth]

If you are asking about the two episodes I mentioned both were during the summer so I got out of the conditions and landed where there was no need of any defroster.  

[carusoam]

In an NA airplane... anywhere near 10K’ or above... getting appreciable heat to the windshield can be really challenging in the deep winter temps...

Low MP, generates low heat, while cold air works really well at minimizing the heat that actually gets delivered to the windshield...

May consider running the mixture right at Peak if the ice needs to be melted....

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[jaylw314]

On 3/4/2020 at 6:12 PM, FlyBoyM20J said:

That makes sense and I wasn't surprised at the response from CAV.  Just thought it was work asking.

So, if I understand you, I can get a heated prop from BFG (don't know the place).  And if I want to keep doing things half-way, is there another such place that will do a windshield sprayer?

I'm not necessarily going to do any of this but I know from talking with other pilots that planes used to have such components and no TKS at all.  Right now, I've got nothing on my J and it may well stay that way since I'm disinclined to fly into icing conditions.  But I can imagine a situation in which I might be obliged to land ahead of schedule and if I had some icing response equipment, I'm in an environment in which it might well be useful.

I'd like to know my options, basically, and I'm prepared to hear that it's TKS or nothing. 

Thanks!

Cliff

 

You do have pitot heat and a windshield defroster  Admittedly, that was of little comfort to me when I had my icing encounter...

[FlyBoyM20J]

5 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

You do have pitot heat and a windshield defroster  Admittedly, that was of little comfort to me when I had my icing encounter...

Yep...and alt static for when the aft ports are iced over.  I suppose I sleep better when I keep those little things in mind.

Cliff

[GeeBee]

If you dispatch into probable icing conditions in an airplane without FIKI, and your landing temp is below freezing you made a bad dispatch decision. If I am going in a light plane without FIKI, and the landing airport is below freezing, I want to know I will be no ice all the way.

 

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, GeeBee said:

If you dispatch into probable icing conditions in an airplane without FIKI, and your landing temp is below freezing you made a bad dispatch decision. If I am going in a light plane without FIKI, and the landing airport is below freezing, I want to know I will be no ice all the way.

 

You'd have to extend that into no freezing temps and clouds at your planned altitudes the entire trip if you want to know there will be no icing.

[KLRDMD]

On 3/5/2020 at 8:21 AM, ilovecornfields said:

I bought a FIKI plane. One you go FIKI, you never go back...I do spent more time running it during the monthly tests than I do in actual icing, though.

Good thing I didn't know that when I sold my KI Bravo and have never had another KI airplane since.

[gsxrpilot]

On 3/4/2020 at 12:16 AM, GeeBee said:

To have FIKI you must have a TKS feed on the prop and even then it is only for the long bodies.

There are some mid-bodies that have full FIKI. This includes some 252's and some Encores.

[Ibra]

14 hours ago, carusoam said:

May consider running the mixture right at Peak if the ice needs to be melted....

I had the impression you need to be at best power ROP when flying in icing, you need heat but icy surfaces need lot of speed to keep working? if you reach 300kts high TAT from thermal heating will help

If one day I get caught in the NA M20J above 10Ks with load of ice on windshield & wing, when the stall horns I will go for the wild card: high power cruise decent on 2000RPM decent at 200kts, then push prop all the way forward, I expect the big splash of hot engine oil to clean up some of the ice on wing & windshield, then I just have to sort out a forced landing in a flyable aircraft while being able to see ahead, if all goes well I will wear my new set of pants that I store under the life jackets

Edited March 6, 2020 by Ibra

[GeeBee]

4 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

You'd have to extend that into no freezing temps and clouds at your planned altitudes the entire trip if you want to know there will be no icing.

You can go into freezing temps but you need to avoid moisture. How do you think airlines do a “no ice” dispatch when say an anti-ice valve fails and it has to be deferred per the MEL?
 

My point is and remains, in a Non FIKI airplane an inadvertent ice encounter will not be problematic upon arrival if the landing temp is above freezing. Your defroster can clear the windshield in sufficient time for landing. If your landing temp is below freezing in a Non Fiki airplane, an inadvertent ice encounter is a serious situation because you may not shed the ice on the airframe or be able to see to land. Thus your tolerance for an inadvertent encounter is near zero if the landing temp is below freezing. You need to do an absolute “no ice” dispatch in that case.
 

Boeing for instance sets the landing temp for complete ice shed at 46 and not 32 because the airplane will descend and arrive so fast it will not have time to thaw the ice on unprotected surfaces. This is known as the “enroute icing penalty” and if I remember is about 13,000 pound penalty on a 737. Light planes of course have more time to thaw.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

43 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

You can go into freezing temps but you need to avoid moisture. How do you think airlines do a “no ice” dispatch when say an anti-ice valve fails and it has to be deferred per the MEL?
 

My point is and remains, in a Non FIKI airplane an inadvertent ice encounter will not be problematic upon arrival if the landing temp is above freezing. Your defroster can clear the windshield in sufficient time for landing. If your landing temp is below freezing in a Non Fiki airplane, an inadvertent ice encounter is a serious situation because you may not shed the ice on the airframe or be able to see to land. Thus your tolerance for an inadvertent encounter is near zero if the landing temp is below freezing. You need to do an absolute “no ice” dispatch in that case.
 

Boeing for instance sets the landing temp for complete ice shed at 46 and not 32 because the airplane will descend and arrive so fast it will not have time to thaw the ice on unprotected surfaces. This is known as the “enroute icing penalty” and if I remember is about 13,000 pound penalty on a 737. Light planes of course have more time to thaw.

 

I’ve landed a Mooney with the only forward visibility was out ice door.

Kind of unnerving, but doable.

Im not sure how you would practice that.

[GeeBee]

It is doable, a lot of taildragger pilots land with limited forward visibility unless they do a wheel landing. My PA-18 had three inch extended gear and tundra tires, so forward visibility in a three point was very limited.

 

 

 

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

It is doable, a lot of taildragger pilots land with limited forward visibility unless they do a wheel landing

Yes, but if you sideslip you may get a better forward visibility (in Pitts you takeoff/land like zero-to-zero IFRs even in sunny days)

The main issue with freezing IMC and flying open cockpit is the cold on the face (and abrupt sounds on engine), a harsh reminder on how it is dangerous to be up there collecting crystals, unlike when sitting in heated closed cockpit with FIKI 

Having said that, personally I think PA18 airframe collecting ice (even with no PT heat) is less serious than my non-FIKI Mooney  

For PA18-FIKI, can use hands to clean windshield and a broom to clean wings (or bailout), 

Edited March 6, 2020 by Ibra

[carusoam]

Side slip during an ice laden landing....?

while carrying an unknown amount of ice... added weight for the stall calc...

with an unknown penalty for wing shape change... added speed for the stall calc...

Is the stall horn sensor frozen over as well? Or is this a FIKI plane with a heated stall horn sensor?

Find a loooong runway when that happens... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Ibra]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

Find a loooong runway when that happens... 

And maybe land very fast as well  if one can't maintain level at VS3=140kts, do you think they should land at 1.3×VS3=180kts or 1.3×VS0=80kts? 

[GeeBee]

Ahhh, a familiar view. Thanks Ibra. Yeah the PA18 USA 35 airfoil will not ice fast but the stabilizer is a whole other story. The beauty of open or nearly open cockpit is you know where the airflow is going. The first time I flew my PA18 in IFR I lost the airspeed (tube broke under the panel) Since I had a Pre Max Aspen 1000 of course it quit too since the AHRS requires airspeed. So I flew on the standby attitude indicator and the CDI on the Garmin 430W, executed an RNAV approach. Not quite knowing my exact airspeed, I opened the side window, when the relative wind started coming in the window, I knew I was at approach speed. I call it the "shirt sleeve airspeed indicator".

The worst airplanes for ice I have ever flown are the Aerostar and the DC-9/MD80. Skinny airfoils collect quickly. After flying the Mooney, like the aforementioned, it collects ice somewhat quickly, so I am glad I have FIKI. The trimming stab seems to be a plus versus what it could have been. However I don't recommend the "shirt sleeve airspeed indicator" for the Mooney 

[Ibra]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Yeah the PA18 USA 35 airfoil will not ice fast but the stabilizer is a whole other story.

Yes, PA18 flies the same even with big patches of solid mud on its wing, tail and window surfaces when it is operated on dirty grass, only when cleaning at end of day that one starts to wonder how the airframe is still airworthy 

M20J however feels to go 5kts faster by simple whip of tiny bugs on the wing before flying, or maybe just flies well when it feels it is better treated  yes, no "shirt sleeve airspeed indicator" on the M20J unfortunately but maybe could hang a Yaw & AoA string on side DV window and windshield to enhance IFR backup capabilities while waiting for 2×G5s upgrades 

DC9/MD80 seems to have slim wings/taila, so make sense they hate collecting ice, also I wondered if dumping big blocks of ice (say boots/heating action) is ok with those jet engines sitting far in the tail? ok to ingest hail but not sure about a large block of wing ice?

 

Edited March 7, 2020 by Ibra

[GeeBee]

"DC9/MD80 seems to have slim wings/taila, so make sense they hate collecting ice, also I wondered if dumping big blocks of ice (say boots/heating action) is ok with those jet engines sitting far in the tail? ok to ingest hail but not sure about a large block of wing ice?"

Actually the MD-80/90 series had a huge problem with environmental ice that would break off the inboard portions of the wings and slam the engines usually right at rotation. By environmental ice, I mean the kind of ice that would form on cold soaked wings descending into a humid environment. That is why you used to see them being deiced in Florida with 80 degree OAT. The interim solution was a requirement to inspect for ice on the inboard portion of each wing with a detector pole prior to each flight. That is why you used to see those funky ladders to lean up against the leading edge so you could "pole the wings". The ultimate fix was heater blankets that are glued to the inboard portion of the wings and operate continuously. American Airlines had one MD-80 out of DFW that had both engines slammed with ice. One engine failed and the other damaged, it barely made it around the pattern for a return landing. The airplane also has issues with icing on the outboard portions of the stab. The outer 3 feet of the stab are unprotected. Since the elevator is tab controlled it tends to float at low speeds, so they put a special "anti-float" tab on the outer portion of the elevator which sits right behind the outer 3 feet of unprotected stab, making the anti float tab less effective.

 

The 737 NG and Max have similar issues, but obviously the engines are not in danger. Still been some violations for departing with ice on the wings, even in the summer. Typically the airplane comes in from a long leg, is refueled for a short leg and there is insufficient warm fuel to melt the environmental ice that had formed.