Formation flying for Mooney Drivers

[PJClark]

I suspect there may be threads on this topic, but I also suspect a new one is appropriate.

I've seen there are various formation clinics out there, most designed to faciltiate OshKosh arrivals.

What's the training syllabus look like?

Who are the instructors? what are the minimum experience requirements for instructors?

Do you have minimum experience requirements to fly #3 and #4 and #xx, as opposed to just #2?

How do you qualify a flight lead? Does somenone give a "flight lead checkride"?

Is there a different qualification for  2-ship lead, 4-ship lead, and XX lead?

What does the briefing look like (is there a standard template?)

Are flight leads carefully trained to brief the template?  

Do people sometimes "train" each other outside these clinics and then fly formation just in their small groups (I presume so). How do you assess/admit someone new to the group?

In a fighter squadron everyone knows each other, everyone's had the same training, and everyone knows what everyone will do in every situation.  How does that work with Mooney formations, especially when there may be pilots in formation who do not have militrary/fighter experience?

other topics/considerations welcome...

 

 

[kpaul]

9 minutes ago, PJClark said:

I suspect there may be threads on this topic, but I also suspect a new one is appropriate.

I've seen there are various formation clinics out there, most designed to faciltiate OshKosh arrivals.

What's the training syllabus look like?

Who are the instructors? what are the minimum experience requirements for instructors?

Do you have minimum experience requirements to fly #3 and #4 and #xx, as opposed to just #2?

How do you qualify a flight lead? Does somenone give a "flight lead checkride"?

Is there a different qualification for  2-ship lead, 4-ship lead, and XX lead?

What does the briefing look like (is there a standard template?)

Are flight leads carefully trained to brief the template?  

Do people sometimes "train" each other outside these clinics and then fly formation just in their small groups (I presume so). How do you assess/admit someone new to the group?

In a fighter squadron everyone knows each other, everyone's had the same training, and everyone knows what everyone will do in every situation.  How does that work with Mooney formations, especially when there may be pilots in formation who do not have militrary/fighter experience?

other topics/considerations welcome...

 

 

For the Mooney Caravan all the training info is on their website.  They focus on 2 and 3 ship to facilitate the arrival into OSH.

There are a couple of formation organizations that are not aircraft specific that teach the inner workings of formation, leading multi ship.  Some of those have checkouts and you earn wing or lead cards. Check out Red Star, FFI, F.A.S.T.

 

[skydvrboy]

How willing are you to look up your own answers?  Below are answers for the Caravan.  B2Osh uses the same procedures and accepts Mooneys in their clinics.  Obviously, any pilots can get together on their own without any formation training whatsoever and do the equivalent of "hold my beer while we go formation flying."  But the clinics strictly adhere to the following.

1 hour ago, PJClark said:

I suspect there may be threads on this topic, but I also suspect a new one is appropriate.

I've seen there are various formation clinics out there, most designed to faciltiate OshKosh arrivals.

What's the training syllabus look like?  http://www.ffi.aero/files/FFI FORMATION GUIDE V3.1 JUN 1 2018.pdf combined with http://www.ffi.aero/files/Mooney FFI Supplement V15 Jan 20 2020.pdf

Who are the instructors? what are the minimum experience requirements for instructors?  https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb29uZXljYXJhdmFufGd4OjJlNjk0ZjA5NTE4ODAyNzM

Do you have minimum experience requirements to fly #3 and #4 and #xx, as opposed to just #2?  Requirements are included in the other documents

How do you qualify a flight lead? Does somenone give a "flight lead checkride"?  https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb29uZXljYXJhdmFufGd4OjUxOTVkMGRhNDQxODI1YQ

Is there a different qualification for  2-ship lead, 4-ship lead, and XX lead?  Requirements are included in the other documents

What does the briefing look like (is there a standard template?)  https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&srcid=ZGVmYXVsdGRvbWFpbnxtb29uZXljYXJhdmFufGd4OjZmOGFiNDc1ZjBjZGVmNTA

Are flight leads carefully trained to brief the template?  Requirements are included in the other documents

Do people sometimes "train" each other outside these clinics and then fly formation just in their small groups (I presume so). How do you assess/admit someone new to the group?  Pilots can quality at B2Osh events since they use the same FFI standards.  However, each pilot must meet the training qualifications each year.  Even if you've been flying formation for 20+ years and 1000's of hours, you still have to attend one of the clinics to join the Caravan.

In a fighter squadron everyone knows each other, everyone's had the same training, and everyone knows what everyone will do in every situation.  How does that work with Mooney formations, especially when there may be pilots in formation who do not have militrary/fighter experience?  That's how it works in the Caravan as well.  In fact, most of the clinics (all that I am aware of) are taught by military trained formation pilots.  In the Caravan, it's rare to fly with someone who did not go through the training class with you since it must be repeated by everyone every year.

other topics/considerations welcome...  http://www.mooneycaravan.com/safety-corner-1  Several articles related to formation safety

 

 

 

[PJClark]

Very willing and thanks for the links

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, PJClark said:

Very willing and thanks for the links

I'm also happy to talk about it off line. Send me a PM and way to contact if interested. I've been flying with the Mooney Caravan since 2014 and am Lead qualified as well as hold a FAST card.

[carusoam]

PJ,

You will enjoy the camaraderie of Mooney pilots who have lots of experience and speak freely of their Mooney knowledge...

The other groups like B2OSH are quite interesting and pretty open with their brotherhood... and beer stash... 

http://www.mooneycaravan.com/home

Flying in formation is cognitively stimulating... every twist of a knob really changes things... and you see the effects quite quickly...

You will also find some serious humor... 

It is important to understand the first rule... Don’t hit lead....   or anyone else for that matter...

Like driving down the road... eyes are busy all the time. Outside the cockpit...

Flying keeps you pretty busy... add another layer on top... now you are extra cognitively busy...

PP thoughts only... I have only gone on one Caravan flight... I would go tomorrow if I could! 

Like any other flying skill... practice and recency are important... The regional formation groups can help with the recency aspect...

Loose formation is extremely enjoyable... the tighter the formation, the more brain power is involved...

Go to the site, find the manual, start reading... use caution... it’s looks very addicting....

The cool part... you see very quickly how much organization is required to all be on the same page all of the time...

Best regards,

-a-

[Yetti]

So what changes were implemented since the swapping of paint incident?

[gsxrpilot]

10 minutes ago, Yetti said:

So what changes were implemented since the swapping of paint incident?

Everything is posted on the Caravan website. www.mooneycaravan.com

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Everything is posted on the Caravan website. www.mooneycaravan.com

I looked.  If it's there, it sure isn't easy to find.  And it definitely doesn't address the incident specifically.  

The Safety Officer only had the following to say about 2019:

---------------------

The Recap.

As you all recall, we sat through the 2019 post-formation flight debrief and heard much praise for this year’s Caravan to Osh flight.  And in my four years, it was certainly the best and least stressful of any of the Oshkosh formation flights.  Certainly, very impressive for a group of 62 aircraft.

-------------------

 

Gee whiz!  That was the "best and least stressful" arrival to OSH?  I had seriously been considering the Mooney Caravan the last few years.  I think I'll hold off for a while.

[Yetti]

There is a new for 2020.   It has a limit on planes.  The limit appears to be more than flew last year.

[gsxrpilot]

The limit on the number of planes in the Caravan this year is largely due to the number of qualified Lead pilots available. There is also limited parking on the ramp in Madison where the Caravan stages. There's no question the Caravan will reach the limit this year and there will likely be a waiting list in the event that some drop out at the last minute. Needless to say, I won't be trying to twist anyone's arm to go with us. We will be full. 

I might not be able to attend Oshkosh this year but will definitely be part of the Caravan as a Lead pilot. Even if I have to leave Oshkosh on Sunday even before the show starts, I'll still be there long enough to fly in with the Caravan. It is one of the highlights of my flying year, each year.

[ragedracer1977]

21 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

The limit on the number of planes in the Caravan this year is largely due to the number of qualified Lead pilots available. There is also limited parking on the ramp in Madison where the Caravan stages. There's no question the Caravan will reach the limit this year and there will likely be a waiting list in the event that some drop out at the last minute. Needless to say, I won't be trying to twist anyone's arm to go with us. We will be full. 

I might not be able to attend Oshkosh this year but will definitely be part of the Caravan as a Lead pilot. Even if I have to leave Oshkosh on Sunday even before the show starts, I'll still be there long enough to fly in with the Caravan. It is one of the highlights of my flying year, each year.

Who do I talk to about getting element lead qualified? Been flying lead all weekend at the B2Osh clinic and enjoying it.  

[N9201A]

Very willing and thanks for the links

Besides the “training” pages of mooneycaravan.com and b2osh.org, please see FFI.aero, flyfast.org, and flyredstar.org.

If you’ve had military formation training, you’ll recognize much of the material. Feel free to PM for details or to connect to someone in leadership near you.

If you’re local to a clinic stop by, visit with us in OSH (the Caravan tent in the North 40 hosts a well-attended MooneySpace social), and we also practice with B2Osh folks in many areas of the country as well.

[N9201A]

l had seriously been considering the Mooney Caravan the last few years.  I think I'll hold off for a while.

Good plan!

[N9201A]

I looked.  If it's there, it sure isn't easy to find.  And it definitely doesn't address the incident specifically.  

If you don’t know what was in place in 2019, you won’t know what is different from what is in place for 2020.

Every clinic attendee will understand and have to demonstrate implementation of the 2020 procedures. In addition, Operations has continued to refine our programs and policies, and there will doubtless be more learning in 2020.

Finally, attendees at the first 2020 clinic (many of whom were Bonanza, Piper or other non-Mooney pilots) participated in a detailed and interactive dissemination of the 2019 incident. This presentation and discussion is also planned for each regional clinic, as well as sometime in Madison before the flight to Oshkosh.

It’s possible this will also be a forum presentation at Oshkosh. A lot of good learning was had that can be shared.

[gsxrpilot]

33 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Who do I talk to about getting element lead qualified? Been flying lead all weekend at the B2Osh clinic and enjoying it.  

In your area you should connect with Chuck 'Cowboy' Crinnian. Look him up at https://aviationdoc.net

 

[ragedracer1977]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

In your area you should connect with Chuck 'Cowboy' Crinnian. Look him up at https://aviationdoc.net

 

I talked to Joker.  He said the same.  I have Cowboys number.  I'll be bugging him this week.

[PJClark]

12 hours ago, N9201A said:

If you’ve had military formation training, you’ll recognize much of the material. Feel free to PM for details or to connect to someone in leadership near you.

Just a bit ;-)

[N9201A]

Just a bit ;-)

What’d ya fly?

[gsxrpilot]

@PJClark the first Mooney Caravan formation clinic I attended several years ago in San Marcos, TX was also attended by two Air Force formation instructors. They were not former instructors, but currently working, teaching formation flying to Air Force pilots. Neither one were Mooney owners but showed up when they saw a request for qualified safety pilots. They thought they'd come along and have a good laugh at us GA guys trying to play "fighter pilots". 

They were both quite surprised to find a level of professionalism and seriousness that matched their Air Force program. Also, the manual used for the course was almost exactly the same as their manual, just with Mooney pictures instead of the T6's in their manual. One of them, Ted 'Lois" Lane rode right seat with me on my very first formation sortie in my Mooney. Lois now owns and flies a Mooney Rocket. Both Lois and Pops have become good friends of ours, and members of the Caravan community.

We're not trying to be Air Force pilots, but we do take our formation flying and training very seriously.

[PJClark]

@N9201A T-38 and light-gray F-15s. But never formation in a Mooney.  Frankly I wonder a little bit whether my left hand even knows HOW to fly formation at all! I kinda suspect it does not but I suppose it might surprise me!

@gsxrpilot yeah, I could tell that by looking through the links posted above. There are clearly Air Force and Navy dudes behind much of the original material.

But I mostly see briefing guides etc, not a syllabus.  I didn't see how many sorties a new first time formation aspirant has to fly, or how many repetitions they have to fly to demonstrate proficiency, at a minimum.  Is once enough?  Or if a flight lead can be checked out in one hop, etc. Is that all written down or does it flex quite a bit depending on the instructor and his/her student?

[gsxrpilot]

8 minutes ago, PJClark said:

But I mostly see briefing guides etc, not a syllabus.  I didn't see how many sorties a new first time formation aspirant has to fly, or how many repetitions they have to fly to demonstrate proficiency, at a minimum.  Is once enough?  Or if a flight lead can be checked out in one hop, etc. Is that all written down or does it flex quite a bit depending on the instructor and his/her student?

I would say this is flexible based on the student. It's likely that someone like yourself with military training and countless hours of formation experience coupled with a few thousand hours of Mooney time, could get checked out in one hop. Of course qualifying as a flight lead can be as much about knowing the process and procedures of the Mooney Caravan as much as the flying. So there will typically be some new ground there. But again it can be picked up quickly by someone quite familiar with formation flying.

The Mooney Caravan is part of the FFI organization and follows the FFI syllabus and training process. We don't require an FFI Wing or Lead card to participate in the Caravan. But those evaluating pilots at the various clinics in the lead up to the Caravan and even the organization its self are all FFI or FAST carded formation pilots. There is also a requirement for each pilot participating in the Caravan, to attend a training clinic (Caravan or B2OSH) and be checked out and qualify, in the same calendar year as the Caravan to Oshkosh. 

So using myself as an example. I've flown in 5 Caravans to Oshkosh, 3 of them as an Element Lead, and I'm a FAST carded formation pilot. But I still have to attend, participate and be checked out, in a training clinic during 2020 to be eligible to participate in the 2020 Caravan to Oshkosh.

You might check out the syllabus and other training materials including the Mooney Supplement at http://www.ffi.aero

As I said before, the offer is open to talk about this on the phone. I would have some questions for you as well. I might just be a little envious of that 252 based Rocket you fly.

[PJClark]

Sounds good.  I'm in Vegas this week on business and you're in Denver I believe?  If you want to PM me your number I'll call you one evening when I dont have a business engagement? 

[gsxrpilot]

Done.

[PJClark]

24 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

You might check out the syllabus and other training materials including the Mooney Supplement at http://www.ffi.aero

That doc tells me what I wanted to know thanks.