Mooney landing gear geometry and landings

[MooneyMitch]

26 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I've not found a way to full stall land on the mains and not thunk the nose a bit, especially when forward CG. The taildragger pilot in me will not allow me to be sloppy and fly it on. That was a challenge on my first type rating since holding the plane off in the flare is a giant no-no in jets.

 

-Robert

Just a suggestion Robert.................maybe talk to Don Kaye, or at least maybe get his landing video.  That might help you.  I enjoyed it. 

Don also has some quality landing information on his web site too!

[bradp]

Oh good it’s not just me :-).  After 700 something landings in the J the only thing I’ve found that keeps the nose from plunking down with the moment (sic) of touchdown is - trim back in the flare.  I don’t do this or recommend this but it works.  Or fly it to stall with the nose a couple of inches off the ground.  That makes the clunk a mini clunk.  
 

I feel like the characteristics seem like a combination of moment of the main gear relative to CG  and the tail stops flying - but I know the tail will fly some more if you give it a little more negative AOA. Part of the issue is the elevator travel stop to stop is pretty far.  If I want to pull aft to the stop it takes increasing force closer to my belly, which is not a “sweet spot” by any means. Plus the yoke goes up as in north at the aft end of travel.  Pulling hard back and up is also not  the most comfortable when you want finesse.  Trimming the forces out sets you up for an out of trim condition should you need to go around. I’ll take a little clunk over needing to go around with too much up trim. 

[201er]

16 hours ago, carusoam said:

See if @201er is around for landing insight...

Mike has been successful at separating the the mains touch down, from the nose wheel...

Mine happen about a microsecond apart from each other...

If you watch Mikey’s videos... there is probably a whole second or two between the two events...

Best regards,

-a-

Fill the back seats and your landings will be nicer

[201er]

1 hour ago, 201er said:

Fill the back seats and your landings will be nicer

Something about friends watching from all the seats just makes those landings buttery smooth on the mains! 

[Mooney217RN]

Mooneys are short coupled.  As a result, it is more difficult, consider it an art form, to keep the nosewheel from dropping.  I can do it, and usually do, but it comes with years of practice and lots of landings.  To this day, the nose still drops down on landing.

Every landing is unique, like a fingerprint, no two are the same.  Keep that in mind and do the best you can.  Practice makes perfect.

[PT20J]

I appreciate everyone's comments and experience! I agree that trimming nose up during the flare would improve the nose wheel drop, but as has been pointed out it would make a go around more challenging. One thing to keep in mind is that the trim bungees add a lot of force to the yoke during the flare.

We all learned full stall landings in trainers. I don't believe they are necessary or particularly desirable in high performance airplanes. Certainly it's not the way to land a multi-engine airplane or a jet, so why land a Mooney that way? All that's necessary is an attitude at touch down that permits landing on the mains with the nose wheel slightly above the runway. A Mooney can land shorter that way because it floats less.

I've seen a lot of bad landings (mine included) result from trying to wrestle the airplane down to the ground solely with the elevators. It's best to remember that sometimes a little bit of power can save the day. A good landing requires coordination of ailerons, rudder, elevator and throttle. "Chop and drop" on short final works -- sometimes -- but it's not the best way to do it.

Just my $.02

Skip

 

[jetdriven]

The reverse is also true for takeoff. You hold a lot of up elevator and then it’s similar to a T-tail piper arrow, suddenly the tail  force overcomes the  weight on the nose tire, and the nose will kind of abruptly fly up on you. Of course your plane is  not quite ready to fly yet, so it makes for interesting takeoff.... the stall warning going off and behind the power curve with a 200hp engine.  It takes 250lb of force to hold the tail down on jacks. The axle on the mains are further aft than that. 
soft field takeoff  practice requires full nose up elevator, and as the nose begins to suddenly rise up, around 50-55 MPh, you relax a lot of the back pressure  quickly to allow for a smooth lifting of the nose wheel.  It flies a little later. B

[Yetti]

Usually land half flaps.  I have found that grabbing two handfuls of trimwheel just before the fence will make the nose wheel a soft touchdown.   Sometimes it is a bit much to the point that I am pushing the yoke vs. pulling for a quick moment. Which can be a bit discomforting.   But as speed bleeds off it makes a for a soft reentry.   Transition pilot suggested putting two hands on the yoke, but I never picked up that habit.  I think the trim solves most things.

[Bob - S50]

We have electric trim. My entire career I have always trimmed all the way to touchdown. The nose still always comes down right after the mains.

[RobertGary1]

In Mexico I’d take off and land with full nose up trim. It’s a handful but I could pick my spot to set the mains down then add a bit of power and pick a spot to touch the nose. You don’t want to drop the nose into a hole as it comes down. 

-Robert

[larrynimmo]

10 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

In Mexico I’d take off and land with full nose up trim. It’s a handful but I could pick my spot to set the mains down then add a bit of power and pick a spot to touch the nose. You don’t want to drop the nose into a hole as it comes down. 

-Robert

Watch out for a departure stall!  You need to be really on your game

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, larrynimmo said:

Watch out for a departure stall!  You need to be really on your game

Which is what a softfield take off is. You're pulling the plane off the runway into ground effect below flying speed. The unique Mooney trim allows for increased nose up authority to do this.

-Robert