Rocket Pre-Buy

[Jourdan Urbach]

Hello new friends,

I'm Jourdan, a low-time private pilot recently relocated from New York City to Jackson, Wyoming.

That move has been great for my health, but it's clipped my wings - which have been for the past 2 yrs a PA-32 in a partnership at KHPN. N8694N and I have flown across the country and landed some bucket list airports, but she's staying put in the big apple. My other plane, a bush-ified PA-20 pacer, has been great for learning stick & rudder skills, taking mountain flying classes, and enabling some amazing off-airport experiences. N8973C isn't going anywhere, but she's hardly a traveling machine.

After looking at G1 and G2 Cirri (too expensive once you WAAS and ADS-B), Bonanzas (too slow real-world), and light twins (too much MX headache & proficiency demands), I've settled on the Mooney Rocket to be our mountain West magic carpet. Our mission is 2 medium adults, 1 large dog OR 2 small children 46U-F72/SBA/WHP/SNA twice monthly, and 46U-KHPN twice yearly. I'll also be replacing regional work travel to places like KPIA and KDVT when weather allows. Due to the dog and toddlers (not oxygen friendly), I was looking for the plane that would give me maximum cruise speed at 12000'. It appears the rocket will handily do 200 KTAS there, and 220 if I'm up higher on a solo work trip with a nose hose. The Bravo is probably equivalent, minus 5-10 knots, and would also suit me fine.

Would you good folks help me parse through a couple of the available options, and offer some resources for a proper pre-buy inspection (current plan is Savvy) and training in-type? I've read every thread on this site referencing the turbocharged Mooneys using the search function (as well as the conversions & NA big-bores) and all the easily searchable articles on the Google.

Top Contender: N222DK

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1982-Mooney-M20K-305-Rocket-Airplane-Logs-Complete-Always-Hangared/323933742607?hash=item4b6bf4a60f:g:c70AAOSw9gtdXY1m

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20K+305+ROCKET&listing_id=2363196&s-type=aircraft#

https://aircraftsales.us/listings/1982-mooney-m20k-305-rocket/

[best pictures in the aircraftsales link, despite expired. Note useful load is incorrect, owner claims broker error]

Pros: $145k OBO sale price, GTN 650/750, stunning interior, nice paint, speed brakes, mid-time engine, communicative owner.

Cons: Not flown terribly often in the past 2 years, Confusing tapestry of advertisements & timeline, Engine monitor is only OK (would prefer a 900), Primary flight instruments don't match quality of nav stack (would be tempted to upgrade which would probably lose money).

Neutral: KFC200, Easy upgrade path to ADS-B due to GTX330 non-ES transponder, Moderately convenient to check out by flying into Seattle.

OTHER OPTIONS:

Mooney M20J Missile, great paint & interior, 430W, ADS-B, 129k [CLAIMS 196 KTAS at 9k MSL, shows GNS 430 picture in ad, I cannot corroborate this type of performance anywhere, highly suspicious]

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/154936773/1982-mooney-m20j-201-missile

Mooney M20R, 1420 SMOH, 165k [why so expensive? only modern avionic is the 900, older motor, inop O2, no ADS-B or WAAS...]

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/147262289/1999-mooney-m20r-ovation

Mooney M20R, low-time, GTN 650, ADS-B, 145k [looks like a nice honest plane?]

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/183756333/1995-mooney-m20r-ovation

Mooney Rocket, low time, 530W, G5, ADS-B, 140k [looks a bit tired? Maybe because of the TT?]

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20K+305+ROCKET&listing_id=2373713&s-type=aircraft#

Mooney Rocket, 430W, ADS-B, Price Unknown [have reached out to seller, but it's New Years]

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20K+305+ROCKET&listing_id=2359391&s-type=aircraft

Mooney Rocket, new engine (when?), ADS-B, 149k, [Bad/few pictures, weird GPS]

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/165598829/1979-mooney-m20k-305-rocket

 

All advice relating to pre-buy inspection, type-specific training, and the aircraft I've linked would be deeply appreciated. Thank you for your time and consideration in advance.

Best,

-J

[picture is me and first officer Smoky in the PA-32]

Edited January 2, 2020 by Jourdan Urbach

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Jourdan!

We’ll get you fixed up in a few...

Lets invite a couple of Rocketeers...

@aviatoreb and @FloridaMan

We also have a knowledgable 252 pilot around here that can add a lot to the conversation... @gsxrpilot

Focus on that for a bit...

Then we can discuss Long Bodies like the Bravo...

Can you give a hint on how much flight experience you have already?

IR with that?

Try to decide if your flights will be benefitted by having a turbo...

That will help cut a bunch of work out while trying to decide which is the best plane for you...

Do you have a budget driving your decisions...?

How often do you expect to fly? Is this a work machine, or sunny weekend machine?

How far out into the future can you see...

There are things around here called forever planes... they don’t have the same financial limitations of other planes... 

No ROIs, no kids have to go to college, no future value of anything...

 

You are about to embark on some pretty challenging flying... these planes will be ready for the challenge... do your best to get up to speed to match these fine machines...

With great power, comes great responsibility...  - some spider man character...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Jourdan Urbach]

@carusoam Thanks for the warm welcome. 

Can you give a hint on how much flight experience you have already?

300 hrs, roughly split in thirds between trainers + aerobatic, PA-32 (very long XCs), and PA-20 (tailwheel, bush flying). 200 in the past year, 50 and 50 in the two prior years. 

IR with that?

In progress. Written passed, no IFR plane currently in the hangar. Will rectify alongside initial type training.

Try to decide if your flights will be benefitted by having a turbo...That will help cut a bunch of work out while trying to decide which is the best plane for you...

The rocket seems to do 200 KTAS at 12k MSL vs an honest 180 KTAS for the NA 6-bangers. That delta matters for me given flight quantity and distance (see below). Being able to go up high on O2 when I'm solo without the dog flying for work is a bonus. If I'm wrong on the delta, this will need to be re-considered. I also am yet to hear confirmation that the Bravos will also do 200 KTAS at 12K MSL.

Do you have a budget driving your decisions...?

Yessir. 150k for the plane (less if I can get away with it), 5k for pre-buy, 5k for type-specific training, and 6-7k for yearly inspection and MX items. Do those sound reasonable? I'm not the sort of guy who gets excited about flying LOP, burning 16 vs 20 GPH if that helps. I'm buying this to go fast.

How often do you expect to fly? Is this a work machine, or sunny weekend machine?

All of the above. Mandatory monthly flights each to KSNA (the toddler mission) and F72, and back, from base in Jackson Hole, Alpine 46U. Then, every-other-month to KSBA and KWHP, and seeing clients in KGEG, KPIA, KDVT. Twice yearly, all the way to NYC (KHPN) and back.

How far out into the future can you see...There are things around here called forever planes... they don’t have the same financial limitations of other planes... No ROIs, no kids have to go to college, no future value of anything...

This is an interesting concept. Kids are a few years out for us (the toddlers aren't ours). When they come, we're going to want pressurization and an engine that only turns one direction. However, I do not want to have to switch/upgrade traveling planes before then. This plane needs to keep us happy from a speed/range/capability standpoint for 3-5 yrs. If and when we are lucky enough to have children and pressurization, there is no guarantee I'd sell this plane. Holly is very understanding of my addiction, and I am blessed with good sticks as friends who like flying my airplanes and defraying costs. If this was a soulless cirrus, it would most likely be a dispose-a-plane. But it's not, so ... is that about clear as mud?

Best,

-J

[carusoam]

Absolutely clear...

Its a long road from first Mooney to next Mooney...

By the time you are visiting customers... you start thinking about O2, and Fiki ice protection and large chunks of the US...

Study what they are, and how it fits your mission...

With the given budget, you need to be cautious... something can accidentally be left out...

Well fitted Long Bodies start around 200amu... there are a few below this imaginary line... but the OH costs on a turbo engine and adding a new prop can be nearing the 75-100amu total package cost...

Get your spreadsheet skills fired up...

We are in a great part of the economic cycle... people are buying and selling Mooneys often.

Enjoy the hunt!

For an interesting sit in a lot of Mooneys in one day experience... go see All American Aircraft... a Mooney store extraordinaire!  Look for Jimmy...

PP thoughts only, not a plane sales guy...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jourdan Urbach]

Thanks man. I absolutely can't afford to buy a "project," so am trying to do my diligence up front. If an autopilot is going to kick the bucket, or an engine is questionable, I'll need to avoid ahead of time rather than take my chances.

-J

[carusoam]

The price on some options make it near impossible to add later... (with a clear conscience)

But, there are specialty shops that make some additions pretty easy, technically...

Like adding A/C, or installing an O2 system, or airbag seatbelts, or Fiki ice protection...

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

The rocket - or any Mooney for that matter - aint no "soulless" Cirrus.  I smiled when you said that.

So your time/experience you seem fine to transition to a rocket and to keep up with it, but do be sure to budget time and money for a thorough transition training.  See an accident thread here where it seems as if a brand new in type pilot crashed earlier this week in his brand new to him mooney on take off for reasons that I speculated on that thread had to do with the trim.  Very easy thing to avoid but can catch you by surprise.

I got my rocket over 10 years ago with the plan of 3-5 years, but I kept fixing it up, and liking it more and more, and now it fits me like a glove.  My kids were 7 through 12 and now they are 18 through 23, and I am more inclined to use it with my wife to go visit them in college (or pick them up) than to take to go see Grandma.  Although I picked up the oldest from Grandma last week.

A NA R will absolutely put a smile on your face, or a Missile - fantastic machines - but in Wyoming you are a superb candidate for a turbo.  I would definitely look at TKS machines if you can.

[Denver98]

I looked up U46 and it looks like a challenging airport.  It is surrounded by mountainous terrain and from what I read in the AF/D unless you live in the airpark it’s closed to non-residents at night.  I would definitely want a turbo and FIKI would be a BIG plus.  Wintertime operations could be a hard regardless of the weather if the airport doesn’t have a good snow removal plan.  An IR is always great to have but won’t help you get into U46, I didn’t see an approach listed for either end of the runway.  It sounds as if its a beautiful, friendly airpark.  It should be a great place to live with a Mooney and I can see why a Rocket is at the top of your list. 

[gsxrpilot]

Welcome aboard @Jourdan Urbach and thanks for the shout out @carusoam.

That N222DK looks like a good candidate. But it is a little concerning that it's not flying. That could be partially because of weather in the PacNW or other reasons. But we always prefer an airplane that's flying. When buying an airplane that's not flying, it's doubly important to study the maintenance history. I'd want to speak to the shop that's done the last few annuals. Is there oil analysis that can be looked at? How much was spent at the last few annuals? A good pre-buy is very important, but engine health isn't the easiest thing to verify during a pre-buy. 

Will the seller send you copies of the logs? That would be a good place to start. Having Savvy look at the logs and documentation is a good plan. But I'd want a good reputable Mooney shop or MSC to do the hands on pre-buy. We also have some MooneySpace members in the PacNW who would likely be willing to go by and lay eyes on the plane, meet the owner and ask questions... the ones we all wished we'd asked when we were first shopping for a Mooney.

I'm just over the hill from you in Denver. And while I don't own a Rocket, I've got the 252 which is the turbo some Rockets are built from. If you're ever in Denver, I'd be happy to take you for a ride and talk all things Mooney. I have flow a couple of Rockets and have looked at many more. It was on my consideration list as I was shopping for my second Mooney. But I went with the 252 instead. I was looking for Range first and Speed second. So it was a better fit.

Best of luck with the search, and send me a PM if you'd like to chat further off line.

 

 

[PJClark]

FWIW:

N222DK was for sale, and sold, out of Phoenix, AZ sometime in the late summer of 2018. it was listed there for at least 6 months. Point is, it wasn't flying much in 2018, but it was in perhaps the driest climate you can find all that time.  Only been in Seattle about a year so the low recent flying time may not be that big a deal.

Because it already has a 750 and a 650, you really ought to think of this as the right airplane to buy and upgrade--you've got about $25k of it already done with those two boxes. Get the upgrades financed as part of the purchase.  I just did that to my bought in 2019 Rocket which looks like this.  You can do G3x/G5 backup/EIS for about $17,000-$19k installed at Advanced Aero Technologies in Greeley, CO (they just did mine---but get your own quote from them since mine was a package deal for everything).

Speeds:  I've seen 197 KTAS on 65% power at 12,000.  200+ easily doable above 15k.

PJ

[Jourdan Urbach]

Thanks all for the warm welcome.

Erik: I could see that happening for us as well. Any recommendations on CFIs? I've heard Don Kaye's name invoked quite a bit, not sure if he's still flying. If I buy this bird, I will be very tempted to PM you and ask for a connection to the MT boys! 

Denver: Yessir, one of the most beautiful approaches in the lower 48. Highly recommend you come a few miles up and check it out. Currently hunting for a hangar. Spent a few weeks based out of there in the pacer this summer. Backup is KDIJ. Lots of residents fly 525s out of there, I suspect they use VNAV guidance over the reservoir to the north even though our approach hasn't been certified yet.

Paul: Would love to meet up. Have commercial scheduled at KAPA for next month, so that should be convenient. RE: the pre buy, agreed. I am very concerned about the health of the most important piece of metal on the aircraft. I've got logs (attached) but I'd love to find a real expert locally to take a look for me. Any advice on where to start there?

PJ: That's some great color. Can't imagine somebody buying this bird (222DK), then listing her so soon after. He says he's fallen out of love with flying. She had an annual in August 2019 btw. Trade a Plane and eBay are listing different prices but eBay was updated 3 days ago. I'd love to have a real mooney and TSIO520 expert boroscope her and see what we're dealing with. Finishing the left side of the panel makes sense to me too. And then cutting a cleaner panel for her. That AAT figure you quoted is compelling. May I drop your name when I call them? I will also price out [[TXIw/EIS] + [G5]] to see if that nets out similarly. 

**update: 252WT priced at 149k, representative got back to me** [seems rich - maybe because it's been hangared at Reid-Hillview for 6 months! but maintained by Top Gun which is very nice]

N222DK-Logs.pdf

[PJClark]

TXI will cost you at least $5k more. Yes you may drop my name at AATG. the Boss there is George, good dude.

[gsxrpilot]

The members who might be able to take a look for you include @amillet, @Dan at S43, @Bob - S50, and @FlyingAg14. They're all in the Seattle area more or less. They can probably also recommend a good shop to do the pre-buy.

Taking a quick look at the logs you included... I don't see anything after the Nov 2017 annual. Did he send you the most recent logs?

Regarding why the owner is selling so quickly, that Rocket might have scared him 

Let me know when you're coming to Denver. We'll definitely get together.

 

[FloridaMan]

You forgot this one:

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/33127231/1986-mooney-m20k-305-rocket?dlr=1&etid=1&pcid=1002312

I bought my Rocket from Lafferty and had an excellent experience. 

[Jourdan Urbach]

Just now, FloridaMan said:

You forgot this one:

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/33127231/1986-mooney-m20k-305-rocket?dlr=1&etid=1&pcid=1002312

I bought my Rocket from Lafferty and had an excellent experience. 

Alan: Just spoke with Jim this morning, 252WT is sitting at Reid Hillview in SF, asking 149k. Maintained by Top Gun MSC at KSCK. 

Paul: Suspect you may be right. No - I pulled those logs off the older ad. Haven't re-contacted the owner, don't want to bombard him until I have someone to look at the bird.

PJ: Had a good call with George. As I suspected, 330 to ADS-B is no biggie. His quote for GFC500+G3x/G5 was pretty compelling. Will see how this all shakes out. Danger!

-J

[PJClark]

PM me if you need a finance guy to talk to...

[Danb]

Don Kaye would be a great choice for transition training and subsequently going right through your IFR, check out the Mooney flyer for other CFI’s out west, I have a Bravo as does Don K., learning the turbo procedures are a must, Heat kills our planes, along with the training Don can provide he’ll also provide proper turbo techniques, welcome to the greatest aircraft made along with the wealth of knowledge within Mooneyspace 

[Jourdan Urbach]

Just now, Danb said:

Don Kaye would be a great choice for transition training and subsequently going right through your IFR, check out the Mooney flyer for other CFI’s out west, I have a Bravo as does Don K., learning the turbo procedures are a must, Heat kills our planes, along with the training Don can provide he’ll also provide proper turbo techniques, welcome to the greatest aircraft made along with the wealth of knowledge within Mooneyspace 

Thanks, Dan. Do you happen to have Don's contact info?

I believe this is the list you're referring to: https://themooneyflyer.com/cfi.html

Anyone have experience with: "Andrew Rutherford, Kelso, WA. CFI, CFII, MEI. (360) 560-9688. Available for flight instruction in the Pacific Northwest. Mooney Bravo owner. Professional pilot. 1000+ hours instruction given."

or: "Chad Grondahl (CFI, CFII, MEI & ATP), Colorado Springs (KCOS). (303) 242-4961. Email:  fly9209h@gmail.com. Mooney owner (M20F) and FAA Gold Seal Flight Instructor specializing in transition and proficiency training, mountain flying, flight reviews, IPCs, turbocharged aircraft checkouts, ferry flights, and air-to-air photography of your Mooney. Experience: 4,500 hrs TT - 1,800 hrs Dual Given - 750 hrs in Mooneys (most models)."

or: "Ben Kaufman, Fort Collins. (KFNL). (CFI/CFII) – (801) 319-3218 -Email: bkaufman.mba@gmail.com.
Jim Rogers, Denver. 12000+ hours TT flown most of those hours were in Mooneys. I own a 231 M20K. Gold Seal, CFI, II, MEI, ATP. 900+ instructing. 303-921-6937. Email: rogejame@hotmail.com."

Best,

-J

[gsxrpilot]

You can reach Don Kaye here...  http://donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Welcome.html

 

[Jourdan Urbach]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

You can reach Don Kaye here...  http://donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Welcome.html

 

Thanks, have a voicemail into his home number. Also have an email into finance thanks to PJ, and a call into Don Maxwell to see if he can recommend pre-buy in the northwest.

Truly appreciate the caring and knowledgable folks on this board. I've been a BT'er for a bit and continue to be impressed by the vibrancy and selflessness of these forums. Alan gave me a bunch of his time on the phone today which was super valuable.

Best,

-J

[Bolter]

5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

The members who might be able to take a look for you include @amillet, @Dan at S43, @Bob - S50, and @FlyingAg14. They're all in the Seattle area more or less. They can probably also recommend a good shop to do the pre-buy.

Taking a quick look at the logs you included... I don't see anything after the Nov 2017 annual. Did he send you the most recent logs?

Regarding why the owner is selling so quickly, that Rocket might have scared him 

Let me know when you're coming to Denver. We'll definitely get together.

 

PM Sent to @Jourdan Urbach

[aviatoreb]

6 hours ago, Jourdan Urbach said:

Erik: I could see that happening for us as well. Any recommendations on CFIs? I've heard Don Kaye's name invoked quite a bit, not sure if he's still flying. If I buy this bird, I will be very tempted to PM you and ask for a connection to the MT boys! 

 

N222DK-Logs.pdf 18.46 MB · 4 downloads

Welcome Jordan.

I don't know any CFI's out that way. I have not flown with Don, But I hear fantastic things by those who have - and I did buy his landing instruction tape because it has video out the window upon landing just to try and memorize the site view of landing at proper pitch in a Mooney - anyway he has a great reputation and I would definitely fly with him if I were in the West.  

Good luck!  And let us know what you end up getting!  We love pictures on Mooney space.