Accident in Johnson County Kansas Mooney M20 S

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

Keeping a good grip on the throttle is good practice on take off after you've added full power. My seat slipped back once and as I slid back my hand pulled the throttle back to idle - it was a few seconds of getting it back in control on the ground and coming to a stop, but at least the airplane didn't take off that way.

I don't think my vernier throttle will just pull back to idle. 

[Hank]

31 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I don't think my vernier throttle will just pull back to idle. 

 My throttle quadrant certainly will . . . . .

[201wantabe]

On 1/17/2020 at 6:41 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Keeping a good grip on the throttle is good practice on take off after you've added full power. My seat slipped back once and as I slid back my hand pulled the throttle back to idle - it was a few seconds of getting it back in control on the ground and coming to a stop, but at least the airplane didn't take off that way.

Grip would not be the term I would use, in throttle quadrant airplanes I have always push the throttle/s forward and then place my hand flat on the underside of all levers in the quadrant and held them to the stop or desired position. Keeping a grip on them does exactly what you described, if your seats not clipped in all the way and you reduce the power, or worse mixture. Keeping your hand on the backside simply lets you fall away if your seat comes back. 

[bradp]

Tried letting go of everything on departure once at a safe altitude last time I flew.  If I’m in a mid body with takeoff trim and flaps, full throttle and let go my nose actually returns to a pretty level attitude if I don’t use additional trim during climb.   Makes me a little bit reassured that if my seat track pops and I let go of the yoke, I’ll neither be heading for the weeds nor the moon - so long as trim and flaps are in the general neighborhood of where they are supposed to be .  

[amillet]

2 hours ago, bradp said:

Tried letting go of everything on departure once at a safe altitude last time I flew.  If I’m in a mid body with takeoff trim and flaps, full throttle and let go my nose actually returns to a pretty level attitude if I don’t use additional trim during climb.   Makes me a little bit reassured that if my seat track pops and I let go of the yoke, I’ll neither be heading for the weeds nor the moon - so long as trim and flaps are in the general neighborhood of where they are supposed to be .  

But, when the seat slides back the CG moves back and the nose goes up.  You have to pull your body weight up to get the seat forward again.

[mike_elliott]

3 hours ago, bradp said:

Tried letting go of everything on departure once at a safe altitude last time I flew.  If I’m in a mid body with takeoff trim and flaps, full throttle and let go my nose actually returns to a pretty level attitude if I don’t use additional trim during climb.   Makes me a little bit reassured that if my seat track pops and I let go of the yoke, I’ll neither be heading for the weeds nor the moon - so long as trim and flaps are in the general neighborhood of where they are supposed to be .  

In the GFC700 equipped Mooneys' I suggest setting the FLC to 105 kts, put HDG on while on the ground. If you get the AP all set up, a simple push of the AP button to turn on will keep you from ending UWOF when "something" goes pear shaped on takeoff.

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, bradp said:

Tried letting go of everything on departure once at a safe altitude last time I flew.  If I’m in a mid body with takeoff trim and flaps, full throttle and let go my nose actually returns to a pretty level attitude if I don’t use additional trim during climb.   Makes me a little bit reassured that if my seat track pops and I let go of the yoke, I’ll neither be heading for the weeds nor the moon - so long as trim and flaps are in the general neighborhood of where they are supposed to be .  

That is a good test and interesting to hear.

But for our owned airplanes, I see no reason we should ever be worrying about our lives hanging on the strength of the seat-pins - I mentioned this before - why not get a piece of wood, like a 2 by 4 or whatever is the right size, to place behind your pilot seat on the ground behind the seat tracks, so that if the pin were to slip, the seat has a mechanical block and still can't go anywhere?  It would be a small and non- intrusive old school absolute preventative fix to a potentially dire problem.

Edited February 1, 2020 by aviatoreb

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

In the GFC700 equipped Mooneys' I suggest setting the FLC to 105 kts, put HDG on while on the ground. If you get the AP all set up, a simple push of the AP button to turn on will keep you from ending UWOF when "something" goes pear shaped on takeoff.

This is an excellent idea.  I usually align heading bug with runway heading and hit the Go Around button so that the command bars give me Vx pitch on climb out.  I guess it would be a 2 button push for me... FLCH & AP.

-dan

[PTK]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

That is a good test and interesting to hear.

But for our owned airplanes, I see no reason we should ever be worrying about our lives hanging on the strength of the seat-pins - I mentioned this before - why not get a piece of wood, like a 2 by 4 or whatever is the right size, to place behind your pilot seat on the ground behind the seat tracks, so that if the pin were to slip, the seat has a mechanical block and still can't go anywhere?  It would be a small and non- intrusive old school absolute preventative fix to a potentially dire problem.

This is a great idea to prevent the seat from sliding back. But a bigger problem is the seat “collapsing” so to speak. In other words the whole seat moves down and you feel like you’re sitting on the floor! It can happen when the weight exceeds what the structure supporting the seat can handle. And not just from an overweight pilot or copilot. It can be from g forces. Rare but I have seen it in a Mooney and it’s a real eye opener. Suddenly the seat collapses and you find yourself practically sitting on the floor grabbing the center tube to pull yourself up!

[kortopates]

This is a great idea to prevent the seat from sliding back. But a bigger problem is the seat “collapsing” so to speak. In other words the whole seat moves down and you feel like you’re sitting on the floor! It can happen when the weight exceeds what the structure supporting the seat can handle. And not just from an overweight pilot or copilot. It can be from g forces. Rare but I have seen it in a Mooney and it’s a real eye opener. Suddenly the seat collapses and you find yourself practically sitting on the floor grabbing the center tube to pull yourself up!

Very interesting Peter. Was this an accident you might be able to point me towards? I've never heard of this one and would be most interested to read more about it. An eye opener for sure!
Owners find out they have seat cracks all the time during upholstery jobs so I wonder if if it's something not repaired that leads to the failure you mentioned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hank]

52 minutes ago, PTK said:

This is a great idea to prevent the seat from sliding back. But a bigger problem is the seat “collapsing” so to speak. In other words the whole seat moves down and you feel like you’re sitting on the floor! It can happen when the weight exceeds what the structure supporting the seat can handle. And not just from an overweight pilot or copilot. It can be from g forces. Rare but I have seen it in a Mooney and it’s a real eye opener. Suddenly the seat collapses and you find yourself practically sitting on the floor grabbing the center tube to pull yourself up!

In my Mooney, tht would be a drop of about 2" or a little less. It's much, much more in C & B planes . . . . . .

[Nick Pilotte]

So I just talked with my sister yesterday and this accident hits much closer to home now.  The pilot worked with my brother in law on many occasions the past few years. They also lived in the same small suburb.  I hope we can learn what happened, but unfortunately the result is the same regardless of what that is.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

This is a great idea to prevent the seat from sliding back. But a bigger problem is the seat “collapsing” so to speak. In other words the whole seat moves down and you feel like you’re sitting on the floor! It can happen when the weight exceeds what the structure supporting the seat can handle. And not just from an overweight pilot or copilot. It can be from g forces. Rare but I have seen it in a Mooney and it’s a real eye opener. Suddenly the seat collapses and you find yourself practically sitting on the floor grabbing the center tube to pull yourself up!

I never heard of that but it sounds scary.  But less likely perhaps on a normal take off (mild g forces)with a pilot who is normal weight (the usual pilot owner) (come to think of it I don’t think anyone has flown my plane from the left seat in 12 years other than the one time Eric from weepnomore ferried it to mn as a matter of convenience service to me).  Anyway seat slip at the moment of take off is the scenario that is most dangerous leading possibly to dangerous outcomes.

in any case what I suggest can prevent one rather more common failure in such a simple way, even if it can’t solve all problems.

actually I have my seat slip fix triply set as follows - 1 I do have something hard wedged behind my seat track 2 it’s actually a smoke hood in its storage tube in case of another bad day incident - smoke in the cockpit / so behind my seat I can reach behind me in one grab with my long arms 3 luckily being tall even if the seat were to slip there’s not much space to go since in fact I even had an extra hole made for extra leg room / I have alread deliberately tested that yes I can fly the plane fine with the seat crammed all the way to the back of the rails leaning on the rear seat bulk head.

[PTK]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

Very interesting Peter. Was this an accident you might be able to point me towards? I've never heard of this one and would be most interested to read more about it. An eye opener for sure!
Owners find out they have seat cracks all the time during upholstery jobs so I wonder if if it's something not repaired that leads to the failure you mentioned.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thankfully it was not an accident Paul. It happened to a fellow Mooney pilot I know in his 201. He had just finished his instruments checkride and had landed. The examiner happened to be overweight. After they landed the right seat supports just cracked and the seat collapsed onto the floor! As you can imagine this happening to the pilot in the air would present an emergency.

[kortopates]

20 minutes ago, PTK said:

Thankfully it was not an accident Paul. It happened to a fellow Mooney pilot I know in his 201. He had just finished his instruments checkride and had landed. The examiner happened to be overweight. After they landed the right seat supports just cracked and the seat collapsed onto the floor! As you can imagine this happening to the pilot in the air would present an emergency.

Thanks for the update Peter! Glad it wasn't an accidents but sure could have been much worse as you suggest.

[Blue on Top]

All y'all:  Great discussion!  No matter what the end cause of this particular accident will be determined, we should all learn from all of the possibilities that have been presented.  I believe that I have heard 3 of them:

1. Trim in the incorrect (landing) position for takeoff.
2. Flaps in the incorrect (landing) position for takeoff.
3. Seat slid back on takeoff.

Let's find solutions for ALL of these so that none of them can rear their ugly heads again.

Thanks, Ron 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, PTK said:

Thankfully it was not an accident Paul. It happened to a fellow Mooney pilot I know in his 201. He had just finished his instruments checkride and had landed. The examiner happened to be overweight. After they landed the right seat supports just cracked and the seat collapsed onto the floor! As you can imagine this happening to the pilot in the air would present an emergency.

Our aircraft seats aren’t really designed for the size we’ve become as a population. It’s not really surprising to me that some seat are breaking.  I stopped doing charity flights due to size and lack of mobility of some passengers. 
 

Clarence

[Captain Bash]

I'm glad I can reach everything with my seat all the way back (well, not the pedals...but everything else!)

[jlunseth]

Doesn’t everyone have “Trim Set for Takeoff” in the Before Takeoff part of their checklist? And a Flaps Set for Takeoff? 

Should be. For that matter, doesn’t everyone use a Before Takeoff checklist?

Edited February 3, 2020 by jlunseth

[tmo]

Yes, checklist items do get skipped / omitted at times.  Let he cast the first stone...

[steingar]

Has a slipped seat every caused an accident in a Mooney?  I recall one in a Cessna years ago, I recall it also precipitated an AD.

[Shadrach]

On 1/3/2020 at 2:39 PM, Yetti said:

I don't think you can do a walk around as a flow.    When I do flows, I point out with my finger each time everything I am checking.    For Example starting at the middle behind the seat.  Check Baggage hatch(yes I can reach it with yetti arms) -  Trim wheel. then Gear on floor, then flap indicator, trim indicator.  then to the right ELT switch, Then tach, then FP, MP.  Then circuit breakers.    Done.

I think a walk around flow is ideal and should begin and end in the cockpit. Start by putting key on glare shield and turning master and all of the accessories on. Move to the nose and treat every item is part of a station.  The Nose (oil level, prop, spinner, cowl, baffle seal, LL, Ram Air, oil cooler), The Left wing (wing root, Fuel sump, stall horn, pitot, leading edge, NAV light, Aileron, flap operation). The Tail etc...The Right wing etc ...back to cockpit accessories off, master off, verify controls free and correct, leave key on glare shield.  I think it's fine to go through a check list at the completion of each station or at the end of the walk around. I personally don't like checking boxes when I am supposed to be examining something.  One of the things that makes me most uncomfortable with the unfamiliar is using instructions on the go. Whether it is a new to me airplane or new recipe in the kitchen, combining the doing with the reading is not my favored approach.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

On 1/1/2020 at 9:52 PM, aviatoreb said:

 I find it much better to add power smoothly and gradually, very gradually, during a go around missed while gradually increasing control inputs to nicely keep everything smooth and under control.  I mean over the runway environment and a fast climber plane, there should not be a need to jam in the black knob and risk loosing orientation.  There is time to ease it in over 5 or 10 sec from 18'' through to 38''.

It should go without saying that this is the best course of action in almost all circumstances and almost any airplane. I mean if you're practicing go arounds in a C150...in August...then yes by all means firewall it.  In my experience, most Mooney pilots carry enough energy on final to get them more than a third of the way down the runway before the thing will stop flying, it does not take a lot of added energy to transition from an approach to a go around and then to a departure.

[Shadrach]

On 1/17/2020 at 6:41 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Keeping a good grip on the throttle is good practice on take off after you've added full power. My seat slipped back once and as I slid back my hand pulled the throttle back to idle - it was a few seconds of getting it back in control on the ground and coming to a stop, but at least the airplane didn't take off that way.

Indeed it is! I have mentioned the anecdote before but it bares repeating. I keep my control cables very well lubricated.  After an approach to a short strip on a windy day (lots of throttle jockeying due to weird ind patterns), I neglected to tighten the friction on my throttle vernier after landing. The plane performed beautifully right up until I grabbed the Johnson bar to raise the gear and retrim for climb.  I noticed as the gear came up my climb rate fell of drastically.  Hand back on throttle only to discover it had backed out half way in just a few seconds. Hand on throttle in climb. Friction lock is now part of my pre-departure check list.

[mike_elliott]

On 2/1/2020 at 10:18 PM, M20Doc said:

Our aircraft seats aren’t really designed for the size we’ve become as a population. It’s not really surprising to me that some seat are breaking.  I stopped doing charity flights due to size and lack of mobility of some passengers. 
 

Clarence

That big ol' 8 cylinder should be able to handle one of @Marauder girls, Clarence