Factory Closed Down?

[Hank]

3 hours ago, Danb said:

Why not all in with hydrogen power, have to stay in California for a few years, I can’t believe hydrogen hasn’t been fully designed, developed and in service. Think the oil industry..never mind.

Can you say "Hindenberg"? That's the downside of hydrogen power. Imagine a couple of cars exploding on the interstate during rush hour every day . . . .

[Hank]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The problem is hydrogen isn’t a fuel, it is an energy storage medium. There are no hydrogen mines or wells. You have to make it, probably from and with fossils fuels. It will never de cheap.

Even as a storage medium it has problems. It isn’t very dense, even liquid has less energy per gallon then AVGAS. A liquid dewar is hard to make light and they all need maintenance eventually. It would be hard to keep the vacuum space leak free in an airplane bouncing around in turbulence. After the vacuum goes away the liquid will be gone in a few days and even if it’s perfect, you will probably loose 1/2 your fuel every month. If you wanted to use compressed gas, you would need something like 20 or more bottles the size of the big oxygen bottles. Where are you going to put those? 

If you do somehow find a place for all the hydrogen, forget an internal combustion engine! Get a fuel cell and go electric. The fuel cell will make the rest of the airplane look cheap, but we are dreaming.... right? 

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. You can "make" it from water, with just a little electricity. School children do it. We call water "H₂O" because it has two hydrogen atoms bonded to one oxygen atom. To liberate it in quantity, just don't think about efficiency.

[N201MKTurbo]

1 minute ago, Hank said:

Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. You can "make" it from water, with just a little electricity. School children do it. We call water "H₂O" because it has two hydrogen atoms bonded to one oxygen atom. To liberate it in quantity, just don't think about efficiency.

Electrolysis of water is about the most inefficient way to produce hydrogen. Almost all industrial hydrogen produced is from a catalytic process on natural gas, which you can get from a well.

Everybody wants to talk about wind mills electrolyzing water to make fuel for our cars, when in fact the electricity is much more valuable than the hydrogen you could make. People don’t put up windmills to be green, they put up windmills to make money.

[MooneyMitch]

6 hours ago, cliffy said:

How long do you think it will be before the states start to tax electric vehicles for the gas tax revenue they are losing right now? 

Calif just raised their gas tax again. I see a yearly mileage report and tax per mile in the future, GPS tracking of all electric vehicles for automatic billing of taxes?

Of course. 

[MooneyMitch]

7 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Electrolysis of water is about the most inefficient way to produce hydrogen. Almost all industrial hydrogen produced is from a catalytic process on natural gas, which you can get from a well.

Everybody wants to talk about wind mills electrolyzing water to make fuel for our cars, when in fact the electricity is much more valuable than the hydrogen you could make. People don’t put up windmills to be green, they put up windmills to make money.

Indeed...... money makes the world go round ! 

[mike_elliott]

4 hours ago, MooneyMitch said:

I absolutely adore riding in my friends Tesla X.   Ya talk about acceleration!!!!!  Holly cow Batman!!!!

0-60 2.6 sec...not bat for an SUV

[MikeOH]

Just now, MooneyMitch said:

Indeed...... money makes the world go round ! 

Well, money makes my Mooney go round, that's for certain

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

0-60 2.6 sec...not bat for an SUV

I'll race you from Tampa to DC. I'll drive my gas-powered car (600 miles on ~16 gal dino juice), you take your all-electric beast. I'll arrive tired in one long day; will it take you two days or three?

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, M016576 said:

Nuke plants or Nat Gas (or straight up oil).  That’s the only way under the current limitations that the country could conceivably create enough electric power to go “full electric” with all our vehicles.

The visions of “all-green” electric power are not currently realistic.  I’m not sure they ever will be.

as for AvGas- it’s hard to best how much energy per LB you’ve got tucked away in a gallon of avgas/jetA.  Which is why it works so well for an airplane... where weight drives every consideration.

a straight up electric plane is not really feasible if you want it to haul a load (have to carry all those battery packs).  I like the hybrid idea... something like what Hyliion is doing for their class 8 truck drivetrains.  “Trucking” does have some similarities to aircraft...

hyliion’s drivetrains have a small Nat gas fired generator that charge a “small” battery pack.  The battery pack powers the electric motors, and can run for ~25 miles or so in “all electric” mode with the generator off.  With the generator on- you’re limited in range by the amount of Nat gas in the tank... that works out to be about ~1000 miles while hauling an 80000 load.  Only takes about 10 minutes to fill the Nat gas tank.  Compare that to the Tesla One semi... which has to carry (and charge) a massive battery pack.  The “Upgraded” Tesla one has a range of 500 miles, and takes approximately 30 minutes to charge its battery’s.

if I was going to pick an electric power technology to adopt for airplane use- I think it Would be the hybrid solution.

All electric is coming.  Even as load haulers.  For real - supposedly 2023. https://www.wbur.org/earthwhile/2019/08/08/cape-air-eviation-alice-electric-plane

The big air craft makers have a foot in the door.  https://www.airbus.com/innovation/zero-emission/electric-flight.html. Not tomorrow but they are investing to develop their corporate knowledge because I think they think its coming.

But for the time being - I do like hybrid electric.

BTW - Do you know or are you just speculating what the load would be on the power grid if all cars converted to all electric?  I am hoping someone who knows will pipe in.

Cars vs airplanes - these are different problems, and also their impact on the power grid would be quite different since there are many many more car kilowatt hours out there than airplane kilowatt hours.

More topic drift - I am impressed by some of what I have read about next gen new versions of nuke power.  regulatory and political hurtles aside, they seem quite smart.

[Hank]

20 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Electrolysis of water is about the most inefficient way to produce hydrogen. Almost all industrial hydrogen produced is from a catalytic process on natural gas, which you can get from a well.

No idea abiut that, it's simple chemistry. I'm an engineer in manufacturing. But there is a LOT of hydrogen on planet Earth.

[MooneyMitch]

7 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

0-60 2.6 sec...not bat for an SUV

More power Scotty !!! 

“Remember, it’s not important where you’re going......what’s important is what you drive to get there”..... Jay Leno’s Garage. 

Or what you fly to get there..... 

[MooneyMitch]

6 hours ago, cliffy said:

Yes somewhere down the line (when?) it will happen but not in the foreseeable future 10+ years. 

If I had a daily commute  of 20 miles or less I might be in the electric car market but I'm not. 

Cost of battery replacement right now is killing the used electric car pricing IIRC

How long do you think it will be before the states start to tax electric vehicles for the gas tax revenue they are losing right now? 

Calif just raised their gas tax again. I see a yearly mileage report and tax per mile in the future, GPS tracking of all electric vehicles for automatic billing of taxes?

My Tesla X driver friend says he pays $100 additional annually on his CA DMV license renewal for roads....... that there’s a flat tax my friends........ more to come I’m sure! 

[mike_elliott]

10 minutes ago, Hank said:

I'll race you from Tampa to DC. I'll drive my gas-powered car (600 miles on ~16 gal dino juice), you take your all-electric beast. I'll arrive tired in one long day; will it take you two days or three?

You think you will make it to Tampa ok? or should I get ya a AAA membership  I Made it just fine from Tampa to PCB hauling all that fun stuff to the Summit, as you know, and a few other longer road trips. Range anxiety doesnt exist. But your point is well taken, it will take me approx 1 hr 15 minutes longer to drive my Tesla to Reston VA where my son lives than my wifes butt ugly embarrassing Prius V. 

Ill spend the extra 1 hr15 min and not do the "drive of shame' 

Oh, and I pay 0$ for the electricity on the trip 

But you bring up an interesting point...How many hours last year did one spend refueling their ICE car. Every morning I wake to having 320 miles in the tank, without spending but 4 sec plugging in at night. Not having to have a stop in day to day driving because the car needs to drink is quite a time saver. Havent spilled that first drop of oil doing an oil change either

 

 

 

[Hank]

Just now, MooneyMitch said:

More power Scotty !!! 

“Remember, it’s not important where you’re going......what’s important is what you drive to get there”..... Jay Leno’s Garage. 

Or what you fly to get there..... 

Electric flight is possible, but it's far from practical. We are decades away from electric aircraft with the range and payload of even a 172, to say nothing of turn-around time. Those are still roadblocks with electric ground vehicles, and will prevent widespread adoption for serious transportation.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

You think you will make it to Tampa ok? or should I get ya a AAA membership  I Made it just fine from Tampa to PCB hauling all that fun stuff to the Summit, as you know, and a few other longer road trips. Range anxiety doesnt exist. But your point is well taken, it will take me approx 1 hr 15 minutes longer to drive my Tesla to Reston VA where my son lives than my wifes butt ugly embarrassing Prius V. 

Ill spend the extra 1 hr15 min and not do the "drive of shame' 

Oh, and I pay 0$ for the electricity

 

 

Glad to hear there are more charging stations along the interstates. That will reduce some detours to find your juice. But how will you top off free in Georgia and the Carolinas while enroute to DC?

Me, I'll just stop every 500-550 miles, gas up, hit the head, buy a burger and be back in the road in 15-20 minutes.

I'll let you know how it goes next month, I have an appointment in Arlington but need to stop and see Mom 20 Mooney minutes south of KMRN (that's my recollection of flight time after Bob hosted a Mooney safety event there a few years back). It's a "must be there" event, so I'm debating driving to reduce get-there-itis; it will also be easier if Mom decides to go with us. She is having hip replacement surgery next week.

[aviatoreb]

18 minutes ago, Hank said:

Electric flight is possible, but it's far from practical. We are decades away from electric aircraft with the range and payload of even a 172, to say nothing of turn-around time. Those are still roadblocks with electric ground vehicles, and will prevent widespread adoption for serious transportation.

Decades - that's your guess.  My guess - 5 years or less.

[mike_elliott]

1 minute ago, Hank said:

Glad to hear there are more charging stations along the interstates. That will reduce some detours to find your juice. But how will you top off free in Georgia and the Carolinas while enroute to DC?

Me, I'll just stop every 500-550 miles, gas up, hit the head, buy a burger and be back in the road in 15-20 minutes.

I'll let you know how it goes next month, I have an appointment in Arlington but need to stop and see Mom 20 Mooney minutes south of KMRN (that's my recollection of flight time after Bob hosted a Mooney safety event there a few years back). It's a "must be there" event, so I'm debating driving to reduce get-there-itis; it will also be easier if Mom decides to go with us. She is having hip replacement surgery next week.

Tesla has a "supercharging" network with chargers about every 40-80 miles usually 12 stalls avail. Takes about 40 min to go from 10-90%, and routeplanner software tells you how long to stop where, which is way cool as it sometimes has me stop for 10 min, then go. Usually, I go to about 20%, pee, eat, and am up to 90%. 

Part of buying the "big boy' tesla was I  receive free supercharging as long as I own the car. One of Tesla's main competitive advantages over the big (or I guess its the little now) Car manufactures is they have their charging network infrastructure built out. This was huge in my decision. Any campground with a NEMA 14-50 plug will suffice also, along with a dryer plug or if you have loads of time, a standard wall outlet. 

Tesla is now the 22 largest market cap company in the world. Larger than the largest car company Toyota. They still dont get any respect. Some of their plans are amazing, including a virtual grid, 

[mike_elliott]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Decades - that's your guess.  My guess - 5 years or less.

Its all about the battery technology...and hold on, this stuff is going to get really interesting quickly. I only wish I could say of what I have heard.

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, mike_elliott said:

Its all about the battery technology...and hold on, this stuff is going to get really interesting quickly. I only wish I could say of what I have heard.

I bet you have!

I have heard things too - but I bet not the same things.

Aside from that - I am planning to buy a ticket on this thing in 2023.  Cape air flies a route from here, KSLK to Boston - today with the Cessna 402 and hopefully in 2023 on this thing:

https://www.wbur.org/earthwhile/2019/08/08/cape-air-eviation-alice-electric-plane

[MooneyMitch]

5 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Tesla has a "supercharging" network with chargers about every 40-80 miles usually 12 stalls avail. Takes about 40 min to go from 10-90%, and routeplanner software tells you how long to stop where, which is way cool as it sometimes has me stop for 10 min, then go. Usually, I go to about 20%, pee, eat, and am up to 90%. 

Part of buying the "big boy' tesla was I  receive free supercharging as long as I own the car. One of Tesla's main competitive advantages over the big (or I guess its the little now) Car manufactures is they have their charging network infrastructure built out. This was huge in my decision. Any campground with a NEMA 14-50 plug will suffice also, along with a dryer plug or if you have loads of time, a standard wall outlet. 

Tesla is now the 22 largest market cap company in the world. Larger than the largest car company Toyota. They still dont get any respect. Some of their plans are amazing, including a virtual grid, 

Free?  You must be grandfathered in, as is my Tesla X friend is.

If he bought a new Tesla, free charging would disappear for him.

[Blue on Top]

12 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

https://www.wbur.org/earthwhile/2019/08/08/cape-air-eviation-alice-electric-plane

You might want to look at this first https://www.flightglobal.com/eviation-alice-prototype-damaged-by-electric-fire-in-arizona/136327.article

If you've flown a twin before, you might regret propulsion devices being on the wing tips.  NASA X-57 is learning this the hard way.  Oh, and the 12 engines on the wing are now only as high lift (blown flap) devices.  Motors come on at clean wing stall speed and ramp up to full power at flapped stall speed.  They are stowed and streamlined the remainder of the time.

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

One thing nobody mentioned, no turbo required! You can climb up till you need a pressure suit and hit the coffin corner. How do propellers work in the thin air above the RSVM airspace?

Helios went to nearly 97,000 ft in 2001.

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/armstrong/news/FactSheets/FS-068-DFRC.html

[aviatoreb]

6 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

You might want to look at this first https://www.flightglobal.com/eviation-alice-prototype-damaged-by-electric-fire-in-arizona/136327.article

If you've flown a twin before, you might regret propulsion devices being on the wing tips.  NASA X-57 is learning this the hard way.  Oh, and the 12 engines on the wing are now only as high lift (blown flap) devices.  Motors come on at clean wing stall speed and ramp up to full power at flapped stall speed.  They are stowed and streamlined the remainder of the time.

RIght - I got that part - its what I was saying re changing the stall characteristics.

I agree with the bad idea of the big props on the wing tips - I am not sure why Nasa designed that airplane that way.

I would think a single shaft on the nose for the big prop - or maybe push-pull center line thrust - and I do like the little props on the wings for as you say blown flaps /

[Blue on Top]

4 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

RIght - I got that part - its what I was saying re changing the stall characteristics.

I agree with the bad idea of the big props on the wing tips - I am not sure why Nasa designed that airplane that way.

I would think a single shaft on the nose for the big prop - or maybe push-pull center line thrust - and I do like the little props on the wings for as you say blown flaps /

The original goal was to reduce the wing area to what would be required in cruise.... and then keep the same stall speed.  The big tip rotors are to reduce the tip vortices (and aerodynamically lengthen the wing).

The problem became with all those 12 motors running at full bore, the airplanes accelerates (go figure).  Then they had to windmill the big tip propellers to add drag   

There's a lot more to it … most of it being one-track minded and not thinking about the whole aircraft.

[Hank]

51 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Decades - that's your guess.  My guess - 5 years or less.

5 years or less to have some demonstrators with little useful load and endurance > 2 hours including reserves, with airspeed > 120 KTAS. Decades to have a 4-place electric plane that will fly for 5-6 hours, like our Mooneys.