Vintage/Historic Airplane Rides

[Seth]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/b-17-plane-crash-at-bradley-airport-are-old-bombers-safe-to-fly/ar-AAIguoF?li=BBnbfcL

After the crash of the B-17 Nine-O-Nine a lot of talk here, elsewhere, and articles have come up about if vintage/historic airplanes should give rides or if they should even be allowed to fly at all.

I understand both sides of the arguments.  I personally feel they should indeed be allowed to fly and for the public to be allowed to donate or pay funds to the organization keeping the airplanes active to be allowed to fly on them.  However, I understand the argument on both sides.

I'm curious as to other pilots here and what they think.  Please comment as well as answer the poll.

-Seth

[carusoam]

Seth,

I put this in the category of me flying a vintage airplane...

Know the risks...

Minimize the risks...

know the maintenance...

perform the maintenance...

Inform the general public what they are about to do...

It is a real WWII fighting machine... not a wonderful Disney simulation...

even safe Disney rides have imperfect records... We aren’t going to be shutting Disney down anytime soon.

 

Our history is important... walking down the cat-walk in the back of a bomber, you really get strong visceral feelings that match the history lesson...

A strong reminder that we don’t want to repeat that experience with live weapons over foreign soil....

 

The Logic I use for this is mentioned in the article.... statistically, our exposure is pretty limited.  If our exposure gets elevated... like me flying weekly... i would want to add some additional safety equipment... that my plane didn’t come with in 1965....

He compared the experience of taking a trip aboard a B-17 to taking a spin in a 1963 Chevrolet Corvette, a classic sports car — a reasonable gamble compared with a modern car equipped with the latest safety technology.

 

PP thoughts only, prayers for the lost and injured souls of the Nine-O-Nine...

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyMitch]

“Our history is important... walking down the cat-walk in the back of a bomber, you really get strong visceral feelings that match the history lesson...”

I had the wonderful opportunity to fly in the EAA B-17 Aluminum Overcast during Oshkosh 14.

Historically,, and emotionally, it was an incredible experience !  

Not that it was a B-17 ,  but it was the fact of thinking of the hundreds, if not thousands of young people that served our country flying those airplanes .

Having studied and read many WW II aviation books,  and the real personal stories of such ,  I believe brought me closer to an understanding of all those brave souls, and what they experienced.

 Flying in that airplane that day,  knowing what I had learned from the books and their stories, was completely overwhelming ! 

 It’s an experience I cherish, and words cannot express the gratitude of those that served in those battleships! Truly heroes they all were!!

 

[toto]

I think that the classic/antique/warbird associations are amazing, and they are absolutely essential to keeping these aircraft in flying condition. 

But it does seem hard for a layperson to judge the risks associated with these flights and make anything close to an informed decision.

Is it possible for the associations to make enough money on static displays and flight demonstrations alone? (I.e., without the paid flights?)

[EricJ]

19 minutes ago, toto said:

But it does seem hard for a layperson to judge the risks associated with these flights and make anything close to an informed decision.

This is true with nearly any even remotely risky activity as well as interacting with many antique or advanced technologies.   This is not unique to classic aviation.

Should people get special instruction before driving a car without ABS?   Should cars without ABS be taken off the road?    One can make similar arguments for all sorts of things.   Should you have to go to a class on rf radiation exposure before spending hours on end with a transmitter held against your head or plugged into your ear?   

The fact that there is risk or that the risk may be difficult to assess for a layperson applies to many things in general and aviation as a whole.   I don't think it's a sufficient argument to justify curtailing vintage flight opportunities for the public.

I flew on the Collings Foundation B-24, Witchcraft, a few years ago and it was an awesome experience.   Would definitely do it again.   I flew on one of the EAA Ford Tri-motors a couple of years ago with my brother and that was also a remarkable experience.  

Swiss regulators, on the other hand, are notoriously conservative and *have* banned revenue flights on vintage aircraft after a Ju-52 crashed about a year ago.  

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-crash/switzerland-bans-commercial-ju-52-flights-after-deadly-crash-idUSKBN1QT1AV

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ju-air-banned-from-operating-commercial-ju-52-flight-456552/

[MooneyMitch]

Thankful for our freedoms of general aviation in the United States.

As we know, freedom is not free, so we fight to protect! 

[toto]

30 minutes ago, EricJ said:

This is true with nearly any even remotely risky activity as well as interacting with many antique or advanced technologies.   This is not unique to classic aviation.

Should people get special instruction before driving a car without ABS?   Should cars without ABS be taken off the road?    One can make similar arguments for all sorts of things.   Should you have to go to a class on rf radiation exposure before spending hours on end with a transmitter held against your head or plugged into your ear?   

The fact that there is risk or that the risk may be difficult to assess for a layperson applies to many things in general and aviation as a whole.   I don't think it's a sufficient argument to justify curtailing vintage flight opportunities for the public.

I flew on the Collings Foundation B-24, Witchcraft, a few years ago and it was an awesome experience.   Would definitely do it again.   I flew on one of the EAA Ford Tri-motors a couple of years ago with my brother and that was also a remarkable experience.  

Swiss regulators, on the other hand, are notoriously conservative and *have* banned revenue flights on vintage aircraft after a Ju-52 crashed about a year ago.  

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-crash/switzerland-bans-commercial-ju-52-flights-after-deadly-crash-idUSKBN1QT1AV

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ju-air-banned-from-operating-commercial-ju-52-flight-456552/

I'm not sure if this was about my post or if you were just responding to the topic of the poll in general. 

I certainly wasn't taking a position against these flights. I was just asking whether it would be possible for the organizations to stay in business if they didn't have paid flights as a funding source. 

[Seth]

Well, 27-0 in the let them fly vs ground them category.  We're biased here, but we also understand the issues and are more knowledgeable when it comes to aviation maintenance than the general public.

Still, a double edge sword.

 

-Seth

Edited October 7, 2019 by Seth

[Bob_Belville]

I wonder how the risk of a 10 minute ride in a WW2 bomber compares to the risk incurred putting your granddaughter on a typical carnival ferris wheel? I suppose that traveling shows are much more likely to have cobbled together machines, poorly trained operators who probably couldn't pass a drug test, sloppy inspections, missing safety guards, minimal customer briefing... 

Give me the 75 year old Flying Fortress pilot every time - he was younger, and no doubt fitter, than I am.  

[Yooper Rocketman]

My dads last airplane ride 2 months before he died.  He died from complications of a fall coming out of my sister's camper.  I guess we should ban campers for people over a certain age.  Sorry for the TIC.

Tom

 

[Air pirate]

Anytime something happens, there are always people that don't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground shouting about regulation and what someone should or should not be doing. Whether its aviation related or gun related or financially related, always "We need to regulate more and pass laws that keep this from happening"--Not to say that FAA regs are all bad, most are well formulated and have saved lives.

Now about 'vintage aircraft" a lot of us now fly what maybe considered "vintage", 50 year old airframes, etc. I have spent a fair amount of time during by 30+ years as a pilot in old aircraft,  bush planes in Alaska,  rather beat up aircraft in third world counties around the globe and various warbirds. As long as an aircraft is addressed mechanically and flight crew are competent to fly them I see no need to regulate when, how and who may fly. Live is a risk no matter what you do, all you can do to calculate those risks to minimize a negative outcome. "Shit happens?"  you bet it does,  usually out of our control, or a result of something we failed to address.

Think about an average day, I could fall climbing out of my log bed and hit my head, I could slip in the shower and hit my head, I could choke on my English muffin, I could get tripped by one of my dogs, I could attacked by a Cougar, Bear or Moose walking out to my garage, I could crash on my Indian riding to airport. all before I get close to an aircraft. I have flown in "Nine O Nine" (she was beautiful), Eastern Block Jets (L-29, L-39) etc. There are no guarantees in life, apology for the long rant , but yes, keep these birds flying, that's what they are meant to do and anyone willing to climb in for a ride should be able to ride.

 

Fly Safe you all 

Edited October 8, 2019 by Air pirate

[Yetti]

23 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I wonder how the risk of a 10 minute ride in a WW2 bomber compares to the risk incurred putting your granddaughter on a typical carnival ferris wheel? I suppose that traveling shows are much more likely to have cobbled together machines, poorly trained operators who probably could pass a drug test, sloppy inspections, missing safety guards, minimal customer briefing... 

Give me the 75 year old Flying Fortress pilot every time - he was younger, and no doubt fitter, than I am.  

Ha ha I drove a bus for the Town of Vail in the 1990s.    I don't think you want to know how not just Rocky Mountain high the lift operators are.   you have to pass a wiz quiz to keep your CDL.   Not so much for lift operators.   I am sure it is worse now.   I have seen some seriously slow reaction times when people fall and start piling up.

[Yetti]

for the poll.   It's supposed to be a free country.   Unless you are talking when you can retire and how much you can save for retirement

[Seth]

Collings Foundation is asking for support to continue to allow rides in historic aircraft.

Please list your comments here for the FAA to review.

 

An Important Message from the Collings Foundation

October 14, 2019

Dear supporters,

Please join the Collings Foundation in our thoughts and prayers with those who were on the tragic flight of the B-17 Flying Fortress “Nine-O-Nine” on Wednesday, October 2nd. We will be forever grateful to the heroic efforts of the first responders at Bradley International Airport and the assistance of all local agencies in the days after the crash.

The Collings Foundation team has been and remains fully cooperative with officials to determine the cause of the crash and we will comment further when facts and details become available. We have suspended the Wings of Freedom Tour for the remainder of the 2019 season and the aircraft have returned to our winter maintenance base in Florida.

The mission of the Collings Foundation remains steadfast in the goal of making history come alive as we have for over 30 years. Since 1989, the Wings of Freedom Tour has touched the lives of millions, as we have made visits to over 3600 communities in that time. Tens of thousands have flown aboard our Living History Flight Experiences (LHFE) on the B-17, B-24, B-25, and A-1E and flight training on the TP-51C, TF-51D, and TP-40N. In the past week we have received many stories on how powerful and life-changing the tour has been for families and as we move forward, and we expect there are thousands more who have been touched by the Wings of Freedom Tour.

In the coming months, federal agencies will be reviewing the LHFE program for not only our organization, but many other organizations nationwide who continue to fly vintage aircraft as a part of their educational mission. As these reviews take place, we feel it is important for the voices of those impacted by the Wings of Freedom Tour over the years to be heard. We need to let federal agencies know that the LHFE program is important to you and other American citizens as an educational tool.

Please take a moment to add your comments to the current docket regarding the renewal of the Collings Foundation LHFE program with the FAA at the Federal Register. You may do so online at the following link:

https://www.regulations.gov/comment?D=FAA-2001-11089-0096

As you write your comment, please review the tips for submitting effective comments from Regulations.gov at https://www.regulations.gov/docs/Tips_For_Submitting_Effective_Comments.pdf

Thank you for your support of our living history mission.

Best regards,
Rob Collings
Executive Director

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[carusoam]

Click, write, send, repeat...

If the Collings Foundation flights keep us from repeating the dark parts of history... knowledge is power...

They should continue the flights with as much safety as the laws of physics allow...

It is sad that so many people lost their lives that day... it would be tragic to not keep teaching the topics of the flying history lesson...

done.

best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

One freedom domino after another, sooner or later it's going to be one that impacts you or me. Everyone of us already knows how much the media loves to cast us as wealthy adventure risk taking nuisances. Just wait and see how long before we will be taking a back seat to drones when it comes to access to our airspace. Only time I got to ride in an old aircraft other than the one I fly was many years ago I got to go for a ride in an old radial powered Sikorsky helicopter. The ride was a blast but watching them start that beast was even more entertaining. Keep them flying.