PA46 opinions

[carqwik]

Matrix - All the comfort of the PA46 except for the pressurization.  If FL flying is required, skip it.  But if that's not a criteria, it's super comfy, and climbs better that the pressurized version due to lower weight.  My doc buddy had one before selling that and getting a early model P46T.  After a $24k windshield, $30k annuals, and $2k for a single battery, he sold that and quit flying.  He couldn't afford the maintenance (unless he ditched his wife which he ended up doing five years later anyways), and said he couldn't go back to a piston after flying a turbine.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Sunday, is...

Pressurized or nose hose, day...

 

Nose hose day for me.

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Don’t shut the door on turbine just yet... single engine, long life, turbine smooth, lower cost fuel, higher energy density fuel, and the license plate ring that says ‘my other vehicle is turbine powered’... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Turbine_Car

...with that baby - you could have a license plate that says, "my airplane is ALSO turbine powered".

 

Edited June 24, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Jerry 5TJ]

14 hours ago, carqwik said:

..... said he couldn't go back to a piston after flying a turbine.

That is a risk you take. 

[INA201]

Take a look at the Mirage UL with full fuel.  If I understand it the useful load isn’t great on longer trips with four people and bags.  My guess is 800lbs useful for a trip of 500 miles.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Typical piston PA46 UL are 1250-1400 pounds. Max landing weight of 4100 can also be a limiting condition so 800 pounds in the cabin is about the maximum non-fuel load.  

[milotron]

Found some info on the PA46 site; It looks like annuals are similar to a SR22T in costs. The fixed rate annuals from my mechanic are priced the same also.

Major costs look like: heated windshields or hotplate issues and avionics. The gear  and flaps are hydraulic, so not that unusual for a Piper product. The engine is run harder but sounds like similar costs and reliability to the Cirrus and big Mooney turbos.

@Jerry 5TJAre their other costly items that you have heard of?  I know it will be more than a Mooney but sure seems a lot less than a C 340 or 58P.  How do you find the ride in turbulence with those huge wings? I had a DA40 that was a nightmare in turbulence because of this.

 

14:1 glide ratio is kind of cool. With a reasonable enroute altitude I can glide to level ground across most of the Rocky and Coastal ranges around here.

[Bravoman]

I think they are great planes, but I’m not sure they would be for me. I have considerable trouble getting in and out of  the pilot seat. Very  tight squeeze between  the pilot and copilot seats, and its not like I’m all that big at 6’1 210.

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, Bravoman said:

I think they are great planes, but I’m not sure they would be for me. I have considerable trouble getting in and out of  the pilot seat. Very  tight squeeze between  the pilot and copilot seats, and its not like I’m all that big at 6’1 210.

I half-jokingly say that the hardest part about flying the JetProp is getting to the pilot’s seat.  

Some PA46 and TBM pilots have learned to get to the front seats by backing in.  They say it is easier to get past the wing spar that way.  

At 6’2” and 190# I found there’s limited room up front in a stock Mirage.  A seat mod STC is again available to add a couple of very valuable inches of legroom.  I have those installed in both front seats. 

The Malibu seat backs do not incline.  Mirage seats do recline and that helps a lot in room and comfort.  

The front seats in my Ovation were somewhat more comfortable than those in the Mirage.   The Mirage pilot comfort wins for longer trips as you can get out of your seat and stretch.  Even solo you can move around some.  If you have a second pilot you can go aft for a while & that’s very refreshing.  

Piloto will be happy to hear that a relief tube is standard equipment on each PA46.   

 

[milotron]

8 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

 

At 6’2” and 190# I found there’s limited room up front in a stock Mirage.  A seat mod STC is again available to add a couple of very valuable inches of legroom.  I have those installed in both front seats. 

The Malibu seat backs do not incline.  Mirage seats do recline and that helps a lot in room and comfort.  

The front seats in my Ovation were somewhat more comfortable than those in the Mirage.  

 

Hmm. I am the exact same dimensions...

How much is the seat STC? What does it change?

[mooneyspeed]

I’d like one but with a partner



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[milotron]

So, it would seem that my quest for a Malibu ended with a request for an insurance quote. Five vendors  declined to quote at all.  Only one commented that they would want at least 1000 hours total time.  Similar for a Cessna 340 I was trying to get quoted.

I had hard quotes with minimal requirements ( 20 hours dual ) just 6 months ago on Aerostars and C340s.  They blamed all of this on a 'hardening' market and loss payouts.

The broker suggest only getting not in motion, but I don't like that idea at all.

 

Being stuck in Mooneyland for awhile isn't the worst thing in the world!

[M016576]

1 hour ago, milotron said:

So, it would seem that my quest for a Malibu ended with a request for an insurance quote. Five vendors  declined to quote at all.  Only one commented that they would want at least 1000 hours total time.  Similar for a Cessna 340 I was trying to get quoted.

I had hard quotes with minimal requirements ( 20 hours dual ) just 6 months ago on Aerostars and C340s.  They blamed all of this on a 'hardening' market and loss payouts.

The broker suggest only getting not in motion, but I don't like that idea at all.

 

Being stuck in Mooneyland for awhile isn't the worst thing in the world!

Just for my own knowledge (as I’ve thought about going down this road, too), what do your qualifications/times look like?  Any turbine experience, or are you mostly/all piston?

thanks

[milotron]

My time is all piston. I was not looking at the turbine PA46T.  I have around 500TT, commercial multi IFR. Not a lot of multi time.

 

Also in Canada, not sure if that makes a difference.

Edited July 13, 2019 by milotron

[irishpilot]

My time is all piston. I was not looking at the turbine PA46T.  I have around 500TT, commercial multi IFR. Not a lot of multi time.
 
Also in Canada, not sure if that makes a difference.

I have 3,000TT, mostly in complex, high perf. and pressurized aircraft. My partner and I ultimately passed on a Malibu because insurance was double a Mooney. My quote was $5,600/yr. No T-Hangar option, and availability.

They are great XC planes with good useful load. Most of the owners I talked to love their Malibu.

Fly Safe,
Safety Forum Mod

[bradp]

On 6/23/2019 at 3:30 PM, M016576 said:

Who’s septic tank has $10K cash it it?!?!??? Dammit man, give me the address, I’m on my way!

That would require money laundering though. 

[bradp]

I’ve thought that if you require pressurization, costs for a PA-46 and an Aerostar are going to start to merge somewhat.  What’s one more turbo lycoming in the big picture?   You are asking a lot from that one motor up front running a bunch of accessories without the best engine cooling plan in the world.   You are not going to be able to fit a Pa-46 in a standard T hangar, another consideration.   You would get a lot more bang from an Aerostar in terms of safety, performance, construction and similarity to Mooney design philosophy.  Plus most of the A* fit in a larger T hangar.  @johnggreen If he is still on the board, has been from a Bravo to an Aerostar.   

Other things to consider for pressurization are P-210. That will fit in a T hangar.  Not exactly a sexy cabin class plane but seems to get the job done. 

if oxygen masks don’t bother you, then a Cirrus G3 or later or a A-36TC are good options, the later I’d think would be more comfortable. 

 

[milotron]

Those were similar thoughts I had also, but it looks like the realistic operating costs between any pressurized twin and a malibu are fairly large. Most folks I have spoken says their piston PA46 is only a little more than a Cirrus for maintenance, but specialized items like $30k windshields will occasionally occur.

I suspect my previous quotes on the Aerostar would have expired and they would decline those also. I am going to find out on Monday. Cessna 340 would seem to have a more conservative insurance record than either the Maibu or aerostar.

My 231/262 works great in the flight levels and will use the O2. I am finding that the higher altitude trips are taking more and more out of me making it less palatable for business trips where I need to be able to be functional the rest of the day. I am experimenting with different O2 levels and using the mask lower down to see if it helps.

[M20F]

On 6/23/2019 at 4:43 PM, exM20K said:

40 minute climbs aren't.

This is the key right here when considering planes that ideally perform in the FL’s.  The time and speed getting up makes a big impact.  While I like 160-170kts the time it takes to get up there doing 30-40kts less then cruise in the climb often doesn’t make it worth it.  

[exM20K]

Those were similar thoughts I had also, but it looks like the realistic operating costs between any pressurized twin and a malibu are fairly large. Most folks I have spoken says their piston PA46 is only a little more than a Cirrus for maintenance, but specialized items like $30k windshields will occasionally occur.
I suspect my previous quotes on the Aerostar would have expired and they would decline those also. I am going to find out on Monday. Cessna 340 would seem to have a more conservative insurance record than either the Maibu or aerostar.
My 231/262 works great in the flight levels and will use the O2. I am finding that the higher altitude trips are taking more and more out of me making it less palatable for business trips where I need to be able to be functional the rest of the day. I am experimenting with different O2 levels and using the mask lower down to see if it helps.

Staying hydrated helps greatly with the high altitude fatigue as does a pulse demand oxygen system.
-dan

[N201MKTurbo]

Ok, here is my PA46 story.

It was about 1992 or so. My friend Rene was 1/3 owner in a Citation (old POS) he needed to pick up one of his wife’s kids from their father in San Diego. He was planning on taking the Citation, but one of the other partners had it. The other partner said “Just take my Malibu”

So, Rene calls me up and asks if I have ever flown a Malibu. I said no, and he says we need to make an IFR flight tonight to SD in one. I told him I had a beer or two, so all I could be was a passenger. He said “ok passenger, file a flight plan and meet me at the airport”

When We get to the airport we root around in the plane till we find the POH, we read through it quickly, we sat in the cockpit and found all the knobs and switches. We (he) practiced for a few minutes, wheeled it outside, went through the preflight checklist and fired it up.

It was a very nice flying airplane (I was told) and made the IFR night flight easy.

[bradp]

Well that’s a hell of a story. 

[MikeOH]

On 7/13/2019 at 7:22 AM, N201MKTurbo said:

Ok, here is my PA46 story.

It was about 1992 or so. My friend Rene was 1/3 owner in a Citation (old POS) he needed to pick up one of his wife’s kids from their father in San Diego. He was planning on taking the Citation, but one of the other partners had it. The other partner said “Just take my Malibu”

So, Rene calls me up and asks if I have ever flown a Malibu. I said no, and he says we need to make an IFR flight tonight to SD in one. I told him I had a beer or two, so all I could be was a passenger. He said “ok passenger, file a flight plan and meet me at the airport”

When We get to the airport we root around in the plane till we find the POH, we read through it quickly, we sat in the cockpit and found all the knobs and switches. We (he) practiced for a few minutes, wheeled it outside, went through the preflight checklist and fired it up.

It was a very nice flying airplane (I was told) and made the IFR night flight easy.

Damn!

That's a pretty good, "Hold my beer and watch this" story

Glad it ended well.

[N201MKTurbo]

4 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

Damn!

That's a pretty good, "Hold my beer and watch this" story

Glad it ended well.

I was just a passenger and a consultant. My friend was instrument rated and current and flew the flight.

[kmyfm20s]

I would take a look at an Aerostar.

[Jerry 5TJ]

16 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I was just a passenger and a consultant. My friend was instrument rated and current and flew the flight.

It was still a night IFR over-mountain trip in a plane neither of you had flown before. 

The MMOPA FRAT score for this flight would have glowed bright red.  

Glad it all went well.