Myth Busted

[Shadrach]

I’ve been told many times how hard it is to close a door in flight.  This morning as I was climbing out on my way to meet a fellow forum member I heard a slapping sound. The tail of the passenger side shoulder harness webbing was closed in the door and was slapping the side of the fuselage. I didn’t catch it predeparture because the orientation of the passenger seat blocked my view of the lower rear corner of the door. So I’m thinking to myself should I RTB or should I continue the 40 min flight with fabric slapping the fuselage. I decided to open the door and retrieve the seatbelt and RTB if I could not close the door.  I reduced power and trimmed for 100MIAS. I opened the door, retrieved the belt and easily closed the door. No special maneuvers or cross control required. It was a non-event and it’s very likely that it could’ve been performed at a higher speed. Piece of cake. I can confidently say that closing a popped door on my mid body is as easy in the air as it is in the run up area pre departure.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Shadrach

[MB65E]

Easy- I couldn’t get a Bravo door closed from the left seat. 

-Matt 

[Shadrach]

16 minutes ago, MB65E said:

Easy- I couldn’t get a Bravo door closed from the left seat. 

-Matt 

 

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I can confidently say that closing a popped door on my mid body is as easy in the air as it is in the run up area pre departure.

 

[Kmac]

I've done pumpkin drops many times out of high wing airplanes.   I always find it harder to open the door wide enough to make the drop then to reclose it.

[Yetti]

If there is no one in the seat, the seatbelt is fastened.  If someone is in the seat the seatbelt is fastened.  problem solved.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

If there is no one in the seat, the seatbelt is fastened.  If someone is in the seat the seatbelt is fastened.  problem solved.

Lap belt is always fastened around front corner of the seat when unoccupied. Non enertia reel shoulder harness clips to said lap belt.  Having shoulder harness fastened to unoccupied fastened seatbelt is cumbersome in my cockpit because I need to remove it to get in and out.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Shadrach

[Yetti]

I thought that would be a problem considered getting some of these. 

https://www.classicmuscle.com/shoulder-harness-to-headliner-retainer-cover-set?utm_source=google_shopping&m=Abstract&gclid=CjwKCAjw0ZfoBRB4EiwASUMdYX2JhizH9d6Q_hzUrU7Ax9h6N7ZErnkRf5lMKuQMAn6GIY-M6cmbvRoCyOUQAvD_BwE

[Candy man]

Wow!!! impressive.

I can’t tell you how many times I have trouble closing the door on the ground before engine start..

Lawrence

 

[Austintatious]

This is good to know...  would it be the same on a 231?

I can tell you from personal experience that this is not the case for every airplane.  I was stupid enough to open a door on an Aztec one time.... I thought I was going to die...  The horizontal was violently flapping up and down at least a foot.  To get the door shut I had another pilot who was onboard fly the airplane at 70 knots.  I had to take off my shirt, run it through the door handle, hold onto it with both hands and put both legs against the side of the cabin and pull like mad and it partially closed. 

 

After that, I aborted 2 takeoffs when the door poped on the roll.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Austintatious

[Shadrach]

32 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I thought that would be a problem considered getting some of these. 

https://www.classicmuscle.com/shoulder-harness-to-headliner-retainer-cover-set?utm_source=google_shopping&m=Abstract&gclid=CjwKCAjw0ZfoBRB4EiwASUMdYX2JhizH9d6Q_hzUrU7Ax9h6N7ZErnkRf5lMKuQMAn6GIY-M6cmbvRoCyOUQAvD_BwE

Now this might be a solution worth pursuing. Many thanks!

 

[Shadrach]

40 minutes ago, Candy man said:

Wow!!! impressive.

I can’t tell you how many times I have trouble closing the door on the ground before engine start..

Lawrence

 

I think that some of the fleet has had their doors misrigged and “misrepaired”over the years. I see a lot of complaints with regard to door leaks and and closing problems that just don’t match my experience. My door seals very well and is easy to close. My (admittedly very spry) father can easily close it from the left seat and his 81st birthday is tomorrow.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

58 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

This is good to know...  would it be the same on a 231?

I can tell you from personal experience that this is not the case for every airplane.  I was stupid enough to open a door on an Aztec one time.... I thought I was going to die...  The horizontal was violently flapping up and down at least a foot.  To get the door shut I had another pilot who was onboard fly the airplane at 70 knots.  I had to take off my shirt, run it through the door handle, hold onto it with both hands and put both legs against the side of the cabin and pull like mad and it partially closed. 

 

After that, I aborted 2 takeoffs when the door poped on the roll.

I don’t know why it would be different on the 231 . Better to try it on a nice day and return to base if you can’t close it. 

What do you mean “The horizontal was violently flapping up and down at least a foot”?

Edited June 16, 2019 by Shadrach

[Austintatious]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

I don’t know why it would be different on the 231 . Better to try it on a nice day and return to base if you can’t close it. 

What do you mean “The horizontal was violently flapping up and down at least a foot”?

I mean exactly that... The door being opened created turbulence across the horizontal.  The Aztec F model has a flying stab... the turbulence was causing the tip of the H stab to go up and down violently with the changes in lift due to the turbulence.  I thought it was going to come off. 

Edited June 16, 2019 by Austintatious

[M20F]

Opening the storm window helps but it really boils down to getting slow enough just like manual gear.  

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Lap belt is always fastened around front corner of the seat when unoccupied. Non enertia reel shoulder harness clips to said lap belt.  Having shoulder harness fastened to unoccupied fastened seatbelt is cumbersome in my cockpit because I need to remove it to get in and out.

Huh, my 86 J has a little spring clip on the wall behind the door that you slide the shoulder harness under when not in use.  It keeps it behind the door and out of the way.  Do other people have that or was that some kind of mod?

Edit: Ah, @Yetti's link is pretty much like the clips I have on the cabin wall.

Edited June 16, 2019 by jaylw314

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Huh, my 86 J has a little spring clip on the wall behind the door that you slide the shoulder harness under when not in use.  It keeps it behind the door and out of the way.  Do other people have that or was that some kind of mod?

Edit: Ah, @Yetti's link is pretty much like the clips I have on the cabin wall.

Don’t know. Mooneys didn’t have shoulder belts in the 60s, I added the Alpha Aviation STC. I used an enertia reel on the pilots side and a fixed strap on the passenger side. It did not come with a clip. Where is your clip located? Maybe I’ll add one.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Shadrach

[jaylw314]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Don’t know. Mooneys didn’t have shoulder belts in the 60s, I added the Alpha Aviation STC. I used an enertia reel on the pilots side and a fixed strap on the passenger side. It did not come with a clip. Where is your clip located? Maybe I’ll add one.

I have fixed shoulder belts that attach to the lap buckle.  There's one clip on each side on the wall next to the seat.  On the right side, it's on the column behind the door

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I have fixed shoulder belts that attach to the lap buckle.  There's one clip on each side on the wall next to the seat.  On the right side, it's on the column behind the door

Take a pic sometime if you think about it. Thanks.

[RobertGary1]

7 hours ago, Kmac said:

I've done pumpkin drops many times out of high wing airplanes.   I always find it harder to open the door wide enough to make the drop then to reclose it.

On a high wing for sure. Without the tip on the top to catch the air it’s pretty easy. I learned to fly in a Cessna 140 and always flew with the doors open in the summer because it can get so hot. 

When I had the door pop on the bonanza there was no way in the world I could have closed the door. The air is holding it about 1” in trail. 

-Robert 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

Opening the storm window helps but it really boils down to getting slow enough just like manual gear.  

In my experience it all depends on the shape of the door.  Cessna doors require no effort to close. I could never close the bonanza door. Never tried with my Mooney. 

-Robert 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

Opening the storm window helps but it really boils down to getting slow enough just like manual gear.  

Likely true but at 100MIAS, I felt no discernible difference from the 1000rpm prop wash in the run up area.  Storm window closed. BTW, have you seen the size of the cabin out vents at the rear of the cabin near the trailing edge of each wing?  It would take a large volume of air to overcome those vents. Honestly, there really was not a lot of bluster in the cabin.  The wind noise was certainly pronounced but no turbulence or buffeting in the cabin.  I had a half cup of coffee in a plastic cup sitting freely on the pax side foot well and it was not disturbed.

[Ragsf15e]

Interesting.  My F model door is very easy on the ground and seals well but I took off with the top latch not latched once and couldn’t get it closed.  Airflow was pulling the door and especially the top, open slightly.  Was heavy and high density altitude so not sure how slow I got trying.  Decided it was better to proceed for the 2 hour flight than land and takeoff again.  Door popped open on landing.

 

[Shadrach]

14 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Interesting.  My F model door is very easy on the ground and seals well but I took off with the top latch not latched once and couldn't get it closed.  Airflow was pulling the door and especially the top, open slightly.  Was heavy and high density altitude so not sure how slow I got trying.  Decided it was better to proceed for the 2 hour flight than land and takeoff again.  Door popped open on landing.

 

This is really interesting.  What year is your plane and what kind of door hardware do you have?  Mine is a 67F and it has a faux leather pull in the center right under the window (picture is not mine but identical set up).   I wonder if in the heat of the moment you did not rotate the handle full clockwise (to open) to so that the upper catch could grab before going counterclockwise to close.   Also, why would a door that was already open pop open on landing?

Edited June 16, 2019 by Shadrach

[Ragsf15e]

Mine is a 68F.  Door pull/hardware looks exactly the same as the picture.

Why’d it pop open??  Well, when I noticed the top not latched after takeoff, I naturally opened the door to try to close it properly.  Then I found that I couldn’t open or close it more than about 1/2” either way due to the airflow.  So flew two hours with both latches open!  I didn’t try opening the window or slipping or slowing. I usually climb about 115mph.  When I landed it went from just barely open to 5-6” open.

[Hank]

I left my door open once after taxiing out holding it open. Runup blew it closed and off I went. Real quick noticed it open an inch or two, and noisy. Tried to pull it closed, decided not to. Climbed out at 100 MPHI. At about 3000msl, decided I was several mistakes high and could try it one time. Leaned over, made sure to move the handle and pull real hard after releasing the yoke with my left hand. It closed, and i reached over and moved the handle with my left hand.

Had it not closed, I'd have made the flight with it open. But it was worth one try.