M20J IO-360 cam wiped, besides a reman, what else to change in the meantime?

[bradp]

And get Bendix mags or consider one of the newly STCd partial electronic ignition systems. 

I’m done with slicks when overhaul time comes 

[jkarch]

54 minutes ago, bradp said:

And get Bendix mags or consider one of the newly STCd partial electronic ignition systems. 

I’m done with slicks when overhaul time comes 

I put in a request for the electroair as part of the quote on one of the mags. 

[Oldguy]

10 hours ago, jkarch said:

Byron, I appreciate that.  I will make sure everything gets done, IRAN /clean at the minimum.  I'm trying also to see if I can get the ElectroAir added to one mag while I'm at it too.  But then another idea comes to mine.  What is a timed out M20J with 2500 hours on the airframe worth with a GTN 750, GDL-88, and Flightstream 210? 85K?  I wonder if it might make sense to go to a 231 from here, because I spend most of my time climbing above 10K ft. I like flying around Mt. Rainier at 17K with O2, and while I could usually get up there within 25 minutes or so in winter, the summer performance usually keeps me around 15 when I'm crossing the Cascades and Rockies.  Seems like for 130K, which is what the plane might be worth with a fresh engine, I could get an equally nice 231 with a fresh engine, maybe with a 430W instead. Makes me wonder if it's better to let someone else do this, and jump on a turbo instead... 

If you are really considering this, you might give @jgarrison a call. On the Mooney Pilots FB page, he says he is getting in a 231 in a short while that does not sound too bad from the brief description. And he has always seemed willing to deal with trade-ins, although condition may make a difference.

[jkarch]

2 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

If you are really considering this, you might give @jgarrison a call. On the Mooney Pilots FB page, he says he is getting in a 231 in a short while that does not sound too bad from the brief description. And he has always seemed willing to deal with trade-ins, although condition may make a difference.

Thanks for that info, I’ll check out the Mooney Pilots page on FB. 

[jkarch]

So a new curve ball-- what if I could get the same engine I have now overhauled by Penn Yan, the IO360-A3B6D with Superior cam and followers and Continental nickel cylinders, but where I don't have to put a bunch of extra money in for the mods, and can probably save 8K as shipping is paid both ways, costs 5K less, includes fuel lines etc, and I don't need to overhaul, just clean and IRAN the governor, oil cooler, and prop?

 

[John Mininger]

3 minutes ago, jkarch said:

So a new curve ball-- what if I could get the same engine I have now overhauled by Penn Yan, the IO360-A3B6D with Superior cam and followers and Continental nickel cylinders, but where I don't have to put a bunch of extra money in for the mods, and can probably save 8K as shipping is paid both ways, costs 5K less, includes fuel lines etc, and I don't need to overhaul, just clean and IRAN the governor, oil cooler, and prop?

 

Excellent question. But I would definitely go with Lycoming's new (ish) DLC lifters.

[jkarch]

2 minutes ago, John Mininger said:

Excellent question. But I would definitely go with Lycoming's new (ish) DLC lifters.

So the guy I talked to at Penn Yan said I can go with lycoming cams and lifters, but he said lately flight schools have had lycoming cams go bad even with 40 hours a month of use.  He hasn't had that issue with superior cam and lifters.  Thoughts?

[John Mininger]

1 minute ago, jkarch said:

So the guy I talked to at Penn Yan said I can go with lycoming cams and lifters, but he said lately flight schools have had lycoming cams go bad even with 40 hours a month of use.  He hasn't had that issue with superior cam and lifters.  Thoughts?

Interesting. Were the Lycoming lifters the new DLC style lifters?

[John Mininger]

I haven't talked to anyone who has had a spalled cam with the new style Lycoming lifters. But most say that they're too new and haven't been out there long enough to render a verdict yet.

[jkarch]

1 minute ago, John Mininger said:

Interesting. Were the Lycoming lifters the new DLC style lifters?

That I'm not sure about.  I think so, but it seems like the cams had the problems, not the lifters.  I guess the question is, if I can get my engine in 5-6 weeks and pay 8k less overall versus waiting 8-10 weeks for an SFRM, is the SFRM worth it?

[ArtVandelay]

That I'm not sure about.  I think so, but it seems like the cams had the problems, not the lifters.  I guess the question is, if I can get my engine in 5-6 weeks and pay 8k less overall versus waiting 8-10 weeks for an SFRM, is the SFRM worth it?

I would not go with nickel cylinders. When I did my overhaul I was told 6-8 weeks....took more like 16.


Tom

[jkarch]

6 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

I would not go with nickel cylinders. When I did my overhaul I was told 6-8 weeks....took more like 16.


Tom

This one's a core exchange.  He said he had one ready to build up in 5-6 weeks.  Sent you a PM about nickel cylinders. These are continental which sounds strange.  Any thoughts on Penn Yan as a company? My other option is no flying this summer and 8-10 weeks, plus a bunch of mods to switch to the A3B6.  Will I regret staying with an A3B6D even though I save $8k?  If I sell my plane in 5-8 years does it make a difference between Penn Yan and SFRM?

Edited June 12, 2019 by jkarch

[Oldguy]

7 minutes ago, jkarch said:

Any thoughts on Penn Yan as a company?

I had a Penn Yan Lycoming O-360-A4M in my C172 and it ran wonderfully with no problems for the 8 years I had it. Probably put 500+ hours on it. The new owner has it past TBO and is still running it, last I heard.

[jkarch]

I still wonder though, the "zero" time still has that ring, and the cam issue isn't something to worry about anymore in these damp, cold northwest winters.

[John Mininger]

For what it's worth, the valuation tool on The Mooney Flyer for a M20J gives a $4000 premium to a A3B6, over a A3B6D.

[jkarch]

Plus a factory reman adds another few. Yeah I guess it’s breaking even except my plane will be more desirable should I sell in 5 years or so.

[PT20J]

Lycoming really would like to retire the A3B6Ds. It has lower parts commonality with other IO-360s per my Lycoming field rep. I got a discount for retiring a A3B6D core for a factory rebuilt (that’s technically the correct term) A3B6. 

There may be improved resale value with a rebuilt. From a buyer’s perspective, a rebuilt is known to be overhauled to new limits with new cylinders. A field overhaul could be done to service limits and have overhauled cylinders, so it takes some digging to know what you are buying. 

Keep in mind that “zero time” is just marketing. Lycoming takes in cores, separates and refurbishes serviceable parts and builds up rebuilt engines from that inventory. There is no way to know what time is on all the parts, so the FAA agreed to issue a new logbook and serial number. 

Skip

Edited June 12, 2019 by PT20J

[Stephen]

4 hours ago, John Mininger said:

Interesting. Were the Lycoming lifters the new DLC style lifters?

I'm having them put in my A1A rebuild now. 

[jkarch]

While there are many options out there, I decided to go with a reman. I’m ordering today. Will be down probably 8-10 weeks unfortunately due to Lycoming’s summer shutdown. But while I’m waiting, a couple of questions: should I get a Tanis heater and preheat below 50F, and should I switch to Aeroshell 100 and add Camguard once past the breakin period? I was using XC 20W50 but the thicker oils stay on the cam longer. Though supposedly that’s not an issue anymore with the rollers. What about adding a dessicant dehydrator for the winter? It’s normally above freezing where I live but gets into the 30s in December and January.

[jetdriven]

That story about XC oil running off of the parts faster is an old wives tale. I would definitely use a dehydrator all the time. Except when continuously below freezing, there’s no corrosion happening  then. 

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, jkarch said:

While there are many options out there, I decided to go with a reman. I’m ordering today. Will be down probably 8-10 weeks unfortunately due to Lycoming’s summer shutdown. But while I’m waiting, a couple of questions: should I get a Tanis heater and preheat below 50F, and should I switch to Aeroshell 100 and add Camguard once past the breakin period? I was using XC 20W50 but the thicker oils stay on the cam longer. Though supposedly that’s not an issue anymore with the rollers. What about adding a dessicant dehydrator for the winter? It’s normally above freezing where I live but gets into the 30s in December and January.

Not sure where you are based, but living down here where it freezes a couple time a winter, I use the Reiff heating system for my oil sump. If I lived a bit further north, I would add the Reiff cylinder heating bands. I have it set up in my hangar with a timer when I need to turn it on, and being as I only live 5 minutes from the airport, I set it up manually the night before I want to fly.

I use XC 20/50 with Camguard and have had good results for the past 6 years I have owned my J. All oil analyses come back fine and I am hopeful I can get another 400+ hours out of my 1650 hour engine.

[jkarch]

Well, looks like I’m not getting my rebuilt engine till late August!  But at least I will have roller tappets... 

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, jkarch said:

Well, looks like I’m not getting my rebuilt engine till late August!  But at least I will have roller tappets... 

Based on my experience, don't be surprised if it the ship date slips. The date the factory gives you is only an estimate. Mine slipped a couple of weeks and I didn't find out until they missed the ship date. But.. it's got roller tappets!

Skip

[jkarch]

How long was your estimate? Mine is 9 weeks including shutdown:(

[carusoam]

My IO550 was only about two weeks plus shipping...

Continental has many in various stages of build, waiting on final specifications from the customer to be ordered...

My biggest challenge was I needed a prop too... that was more like a month and a half...

Make a list of all the other work you want to get done.   Some of it is low cost... like inspect and paint the engine mount...

See what other hoses you want to get done at the same time.  Same with the engine controls.

Best regards,

-a-