Mooney as a Family Plane?

[rsnowden]

I currently fly a Cherokee 180 but with an addition to the family I need something a bit bigger.  I have narrowed it down to a Piper Dakota, Piper Arrow, Cherokee Six and recently added a Mooney M20J to that list.  That covers a pretty wide range of capabilities but they all have pros and cons that I have to consider. 

I have a family of four; me, my wife and two small children.  None of us are all that big, I clock in at 5'11" and 170 pounds.  Is a Mooney big enough for four people to travel comfortably?  I recently flew from my home town of Memphis to Destin, FL with three of us in the Cherokee.  That was a bit crowded.  The Arrow and Dakota has more space than the Cherokee and either of those would probably work for us.  How does the Mooney compare to the Cherokee and the Arrow?

I searched for a previous thread on this topic and did not see anthing.  If there is one, please just point me in the right direction.

Thank you for your feedback.

Beau

[HopePilot]

You can easily fly a family of four, especially, if two are children.  That said, you are trading comfort for speed, and there are no free rides in aviation.  A Cherokee Six would be a lot more comfortable, if that is your primary goal...not that Mooneys aren't comfortable (an urban myth).  Mooneys, however, are not like a Ford Taurus that you can just jump into (aka a Cessna 172).  They are more like a Porsche that you shimmy into, so probably similar to the Cherokee.  I'd rather get there faster than be a tad more comfortable, but that's a personal call.  Your body size is very Mooney appropriate as they were made for tall, lanky Texans (I have to have rudder pedal extensions), but most small planes could be considered, "crowded."

[John Pleisse]

Mooney is a peice of cake Beau if you have a young family of four. I began that way. Now I have three kids and a lot less time to fly. I bought my 201 with a 32 inch waist. I am now, shall we say, significantly larger.The Mooney has proved to be such a valuable business tool, I revised my mission to exclude the three family trips each year. A36 costs too much. I now teach my boys to fly, maintain proficiency and take 7-10 biz trips up and down the east coast each year. The 201 is so inexpensive and reliable, it still makes sense.

[DaV8or]

When I had a family to fly around (all grown now and living their own lives), I flew them around in several different aircraft including Arrows, Dakotas, and others.  The absolute best family aircraft, IMHO, is any of the Cherokee Six variants.  Either 260 or 300, original Six or Lance or Saratoga, fixed or retract, they are all great family aircraft.  I had a Saratoga for years and flew it everywhere with everybody aboard and never a complaint.  Fast enough, very comfortable with plenty of room, plenty of usable load, and a great stable IFR pratform too.  I love Mooneys, but I would take a close look at the Cherokee Six aircraft with a growing family of four.  That aircraft will be adequate when they are teens as well as when they are young children.  And if you happen to have another late arrival in the child department, the Cherokee will still provide plenty of room for wife, children who sometimes need more space, and bags.

Yes, you can do it with a Mooney.  My recommendation is to take a close look at the Cherokee Six variants. 

[N33GG]

Sorry Dave... the above post recommending the Cherokee Six was mine... login bug got me.

[jetdriven]

The Six burns 14-16 GPH.  A 201 burns 8-10.     The back seat in a 201 is the same as any 4 cylinder single.  Roomy enough.  I am 5'10' and 210 Lbs its fine for me. The front seats get a little tighter but still doable, especially considering you sit in them 20% less time than that Arrow or Cardinal when you are going somehwere.  now, four 180 LB adults, or pushing 240+ a Mooney starts to not work out.  No problem.  There's always the Six and its 90$/hr fuel bill.

[thinwing]

Even the six will be feeling small if the backseat kiddles are all doing the.."Hes touching me" or the ever popular "when are we gonna get there!!Than it becomes not size but speed assuming he is not going to take the plunge to cabin class big enough for his kids to runarround.Of those a/c he has been looking at ,only the cherokee six has that stretched 6 seats space plus tons of baggage front and back.The problem is that even with that big 300hp (260 on older )it is no speed demon.That high lift wing was not laminar and cruises are similar to all three.The dakota would climb better than his 180 but not offer any increased space.So by lookingat the Mooneys 20 to 25 kt speed increase with half the fuel burn of the six...he is on the right track...kpc 

[Shadrach]

I think when comparing space, the medium bodied Mooneys compare nicely to the larger, newer Arrow fuselage and beat the shorter early versions hands down.   

I would say that any of the medium bodied models (I'd exclude the M20G as it's been called underpowered) and up will have adequate room for your family with margins to allow for the growth of your kids. The added benefit over the Six is that you will be able to easily reach them if they start the typical kiddie "back seat" bickering...

In my mind, the biggest issue that contributes to the "tiny cabin" chorus that most non-Mooney people sing about Mooneys has and always will be ingress and egress... It's not horrible if you're in descent shape (my 72 yr old dad has no issues with either seat), but it's not like getting in a C, P  or B etc..because the seats are close to the floor so you must step down into the plane and then sit down. This first impression contributes to the perception that Mooneys are small.

The second biggest issue is that most Mooneys have the seats full aft when sitting on the ramp to assist with the above mentioned ingress/egress, so when someone looks inside they see what looks like 3" of rear seat leg room and 2 narrow black holes up front. It's deceiving.

I'm 5'11" 190lbs. 31" inseam, 33" waist and 44" chest...my F model fits me well. If I packed on 50 or 60lbs, I might feel differently. However my IA/friend is 6' and 230ish and we did fine side by side on a 2hr XC.

You need to try one on and see, but I can tell you that I've filled my seats many times and once or twice the lightest of 4 pax was 175lbs. With the front seats adjusted for me the rear pax have more foot room than many full

size cars.

In addition to interior dimensions, useful will be an issue with some models.

Numbers for my '67 M20F:

MGTW - 2740lbs.

Empty Weight - 1681lbs.

Useful load - 1059lbs.

Full Fuel - 64 gals or ~384lbs.

FF payload - 675lbs.

Cruise speed ranges from 153kts (GPS verified at 7K 100ROP Ram air open) at -10.5ish GPH to ~145kts on closer to 9.5ish GPH LOP.  The above varies a bit with CG and weight.

If you crunch the numbers you can see that if I am willing to slow to ~145kts (I am, and usually do a bit better), I can go 500kts with an easy 1 hr reserve and almost 800lbs. in the cabin.

We do 3 hr legs on longer multi-leg trips with pax so we then have the option of putting over 800lbs in the cabin. 

We've also done a few non-stop trips in the 800+NM range.  KHGR (the home drome outside of DC) to KNEW (New Orleans) was memorable as was a nonstop home from Austin of over 1100nm with a nice kick in the pants from nature.  

All in all a pretty versatile traveling machine... 

[Parker_Woodruff]

I have flown four (adults) in my M20J on several occasions and my M20K twice now.  The biggest problem is getting in.  Even though everyone fits, I'd still prefer an A36 for carrying around a family on a regular basis.  You will like the big double doors.  No other Bonanza makes sense for that reason.

[N33GG]

The version of the Six that I flew for many years with my family was the Saratoga SP.  Retracts, not turbo, and tapered wing.  Consistently trued at 155 kts around 8-10 kft.  Maybe there are faster aircraft out there, but it was an awesome performer for what it could do.

Older hershey bar wing Six's will not fly as fast, but do have the same room.

[PTK]

I'd go for the Mooney now and in 10-15 years re-evaluate your needs!  Based on what you describe your needs to be now the Mooney is a no brainer in all depts. Speed, efficiency, maintenance and load. Fuel is not getting any cheaper any time soon.  I wouldn't go into an airplane knowing upfront that I'll be burning twice as much fuel as the Mooney!

If you have the occasional need and must carry more load than the Mooney can handle just rent a Dakota or some other airplane. I've done this a couple of times.  But 99% of the time the Mooney will serve your needs just fine.   

Take a look at this article

http://www.mooney.org.au/index.php/workshop-a-articles/10-why-do-i-own-a-mooney.html

[Jeff_S]

On a Mooney forum you're obviously going to get a view slanted toward Mooneys. But as others have written, I think it depends on how long you want to keep the plane, as much as the configuration in which you're going to fly it. While I love my J, I fly it mostly solo or with one other individual. In this configuration you can load it with bags and enough fuel for a good 3-4 hours w/reserves. But adding people to the back reduces both luggage and fuel hauling, so you have to consider your mission. Also, kids grow, and fast, so every year you lose some effective room. If it's a plane you want to keep and use all the way through their adolescent years, the Mooney won't be the ticket I don't think.

Get yourself a Cherokee 6 or 'Toga or something like that now, or a Bo' 6 seater if you can afford it. Then when the kids go off to school you can trade into a Mooney for you and the wifey to zip around more efficiently to all their college events, and to your beach house!

[carusoam]

From experience with two kids...

M20C until one of the kids reaches 10yrs old.

M20R after that..... (I could have probably gone with M20J, but didn't)

Recommendation: Take a ride to AAA at KSAT and sit in each one yourself.....

Best regards,

-a-

[GTWreck]

I have 2 kids (8yrs and 5yrs).  So far, we've found the Mooney to be a great family plane.  The kids are small enough that with the four of us, full bags and full fuel, we're just under the gross limit.  My wife grumbles a bit about the fact that she can't pack as much as she wants.  Our Christmas trip from Atlanta to Houston was the most challenging baggage-wise, but we made that work too.  The kids have plenty of room in the backseat for now.  They usually play with an iPad or sleep.

The best part is the economy.  Anything under 800 miles, we'll beat the airlines "door to door" and for far, far less cost.  I usually plan for 155kts on 10.5gph.

The kids will eventually outgrow the backseat of the Mooney, and/or I'll have to start going with less than full fuel.  By the time that occurs, the RV-10 I'm building should be ready.  If for some reason we outgrow the RV-10, next on my list would be a Bonanza or Baron. 

-Aaron

 

[rsnowden]

I cannot tell you how much I appreciate all the feedback and opinions.  I have been traveling and unable to respond until now but have really enjoyed reading your comments. 

Speaking to the Cherokee six, I was hung ho on it a few years ago until I started crunching the numbers. It turns out to be an expensive plane to fly at 130kts on 15 gals an hour.  I do 75% of my flying either alone or with just another passenger.  With a Cherokee and gas prices where they are, I would have to cut back on my hours.  Yes, money and operation costs are important. 

That leads to the question of how does the Mooney compare space wise to the Arrow or Archer?  I saw the link comparing cabin size but is it really true that the Mooney has more space than an Arrow or Archer?  That would clinch the deal for me. 

Also, what is the biggest Mooney available?  Is there one model that has more room than another?

[Skywarrior]

For reasonable money, look at a Bravo. A bit more legroom in the rear seats, LOTS of baggage compartment room.

With the mods my Bravo has, my Max Gross is just shy of 1000#. With, say, 70 gallons of fuel, you have about 570# lbs. of payload left. You can plan for 20-23 gph avg over a trip if you like to go fast. But remember, you'll be doing 185+ KTAS at altitude.

If you pull back on the money knob, you can go slower, but burn less fuel per hour. Your choice.

Chuck M.

[PTK]

I don't think you can look at this decision as one plane fits all your needs over the next 15-20 year period.  I think if you want one airplane to fit a changing mission like this in terms of load you really should get into a Saratoga or some other 6 place.  But I don't think you need to force yourself into one airplane for this long.

The Mooney is a perfect two place with baggage airplane or 4 place (preferably kids) in the back.  This is exactly my scenario. Wife and the 11 y.o. twins, bags and fuel as mission dictates.  I can carry full fuel but rarely do I need to.  As we all know it costs money to carry fuel around plus you are going to want to drop in somewhere go to the rest room, grab something to drink eat etc.  So legs of 3 hour max is all I do with the kids especially.  It fits your mission perfectly I would say because your kids are  even younger !

[flashf16]

Beau--sent you a PM

Ryan

[carusoam]

"Also, what is the biggest Mooney available" - Rsnowden

R,

M20R, M20S, M20M, M20TN (all the same size, some normal aspirated, some with turbo, one with two turbos)

AKA: Ovation, Eagle, Bravo, Acclaim - Also known collectively as the long bodies.  If you find an M20L (the first long body) - You will learn an interesting fold in the Mooney story.

Expect a price range from $100K - $400k+  (assume at $100k there will be much upgrading required)

You will find:

      Everything that fit in my pontiac firebird will fit in the M20C.

      Everything that fits in my Chevy Tahoe will fit in the M20R.     I got this quote from somebody at AAA, its true (within reason)

How much stuff are you bringing with the kids?  Go ahead work on the inches and the cubic feet.

If math is the way you are going to pick your bird, than you have already decided a mooney goes fast, efficiently and basically fits your family inside it nice and tidy.  Plus you want to tell other pilots you "fly a Mooney", but you can't find where to put that in the quadratic equation (or was that a partial differential equation you are using).   I know it works for me.....

Reallisticly speaking, 15+ gph for these big birds is normal, (sure you can cut it back LOP) but either way you will be going much faster than a cherokee 6. 

When was the last time you really asked the kids in the back seat if they had enough leg room?  really?

Enjoy the search. 

Best regards,

-a-

 

[74657]

I can't wait until my 2 kids get out of car seats.  What a PITA that is on a hot summer day.  Not the kids, wrestling with the car seats.......  When mine get old and start crabbing about leg room they can either stay at home or.......stay at home.

[jetdriven]

I have flown all of the models of Piper PA28 and although the back seat is about the same as a 201, I think passengers have more leg room in the Mooney.  I have read the articles that say a Mooney has 2" more cabin width than a PA28 but in reality the front seats are smaller. The fuselage curves inwards and the plane gets narrower forward of your shoulders.  Your legs go into a box or a similar to a large kayak in a mooney, where the PA28 series its all wide open down there. Even in the arrow.  Lots more room for different leg positions.  Not knocking Mooney, we bought one as well, but its not "roomy".  A 201 is also 18 knots faster than an Arrow with the same engine.

The upside is you sit in the plane for 20-50% less time than a Piper PA28, so it doesnt have to be as roomy.  Go sit in one.

Quote: rsnowden

That leads to the question of how does the Mooney compare space wise to the Arrow or Archer?  I saw the link comparing cabin size but is it really true that the Mooney has more space than an Arrow or Archer?  That would clinch the deal for me. 

Also, what is the biggest Mooney available?  Is there one model that has more room than another?

 

[jelswick]

Yes, maybe a little bias, but I'll add my pitch for the Mooney as a four person family aircraft.  We use it every year for trips and vacations to the beach and my wife, not an avid flyer, almost insists on it even to see my parents only about 2.5 hrs away by car, much faster by Mooney.  I'm 6'2" 215, and with my wife, 18 yr old daughter and 11 yr son, we're limited to 30lbs of bags each which we try to stay under and we make fuel/restroom stops every 2.5 hrs to leave an hour or more in the tanks reserve.  But, this is how often they like to stop anyway and you can't beat the fuel, efficiency, pure fun and the view.  The seats fit us nicely with everyone having plenty of leg room.  Stagger the pilot/co-pilot seats and it doesn't feel tight side to side either.  Just a perfect (for me and my family) aircraft in my opinion! 

[Lood]

I fly my family all over the place in my F all the time. My kids are 10 & 12 years of age and I am 6' and weigh in at 231lbs. Full fuel and all the luggage for a vacation is still leaves me way short of MAUW. My F's usefull load is 1040lbs and will serve me for many years to come. In fact, I fly alone about 80% of the time and the economy of the Mooney makes this a non-event.

Once I get to the point where the Mooney can't take the load anymore, I'll look at a 6 seater. I've only heard good things about the Saratoga and I've heard a few horror stories regarding maintenance bills on A36's and C210's. However, I hitched a ride home with a friend in his C210T a couple of weeks ago and I must admit, I can get used to plodding along at around 170kt TAS burning 15gal/hr.

[DaV8or]

Quote: Parker_Woodruff

I have flown four (adults) in my M20J on several occasions and my M20K twice now.  The biggest problem is getting in.

[DaV8or]

Quote: jetdriven