Aspen E5 install question

[jma201]

I recently had an E5 installed.  After some tweaks, I believe we have it all working but I do have a question for those with Aspen in the cockpit.  My current configuration is this:

E5

Avidyne IFD440 (upgrade from GNS440W)

KX155 Nav/Com w/o GS (no display for Nav at present.  This will come with future E5 upgrade)

STEC-50 wAlt hold and Electric Trim

This is a transition panel at this point with future plans for a complete new panel cut when a STEC-3100 and Engine monitor are added.  For now I chose to keep the vacuum AI for backup (new pump at last annual).  I also kept the Gamin CDI as backup to the E5, so the approach info is simultaneously displayed on both the E5 and the Garmin CDI.

 Here is where my question comes in.  Looking at the attached picture taken at startup, shouldn't both the E5 and the Garmin CDI show the same deflection on the localizer.  You can see the deflection on the Garmin is to the right and the E5 is to the left.   I have not had the chance to fly to check it out and it's bugging me.  Is this correct?

Thanks in advance for any help

 

Mark

 

 

[M016576]

14 minutes ago, jma201 said:

I recently had an E5 installed.  After some tweaks, I believe we have it all working but I do have a question for those with Aspen in the cockpit.  My current configuration is this:

E5

Avidyne IFD440 (upgrade from GNS440W)

KX155 Nav/Com w/o GS (no display for Nav at present.  This will come with future E5 upgrade)

STEC-50 wAlt hold and Electric Trim

This is a transition panel at this point with future plans for a complete new panel cut when a STEC-3100 and Engine monitor are added.  For now I chose to keep the vacuum AI for backup (new pump at last annual).  I also kept the Gamin CDI as backup to the E5, so the approach info is simultaneously displayed on both the E5 and the Garmin CDI.

 Here is where my question comes in.  Looking at the attached picture taken at startup, shouldn't both the E5 and the Garmin CDI show the same deflection on the localizer.  You can see the deflection on the Garmin is to the right and the E5 is to the left.   I have not had the chance to fly to check it out and it's bugging me.  Is this correct?

Thanks in advance for any help

 

Mark

 

 

My guess is that you’re OBS doesn’t have the correct course set, but it’s difficult for me to tell, because I don’t think the course on your Aspen is set to the course you’re comparing either... 

it looks to me like you’re arcing the course you’ve got ils steering to(90 degrees off of the course). Is that correct? 

The Aspen is showing you actually flying 190

the OBS is set for 086

your courseline is set to 150.

I just realized that you’re still on the ground in this picture.. if this is a “test set” then this may be what the test set is supposed to display.  I’d recommend flying it, or if it is a test set- finding out what it’s supposed to show.

[flyingcheesehead]

It looks like you have about 086 dialed into the OBS on the steam gauge, and you have 150 set as CRS on the Aspen. 

Depending on where you are in the startup sequence of your avionics, this may be normal. I've never flown behind an Avidyne IFD, but on the Garmin boxes, 150 is the standard DTK for the startup test. I see you'er also half right and half up on your needles on the Garmin gauge, and both VLOC and GPS are lit up, so you're still in some sort of a startup test mode.

Try again, hitting "continue" or "enter" or whatever the IFD has as many times as necessary to get it fully booted. Then, try the same test.

[jma201]

Thanks for the reply.  I am in test mode at startup on the ground.  I should have been more clear.  Sorry.  My question is whether the E5 localizer deflection should match the Garmin CDI during this test mode.  My fear is that the E5 is somehow wired backwards since it shows the opposite of the Garmin CDI.

[flyingcheesehead]

3 hours ago, jma201 said:

Thanks for the reply.  I am in test mode at startup on the ground.  I should have been more clear.  Sorry.  My question is whether the E5 localizer deflection should match the Garmin CDI during this test mode.  My fear is that the E5 is somehow wired backwards since it show the opposite of the Garmin CDI.

 

3 hours ago, Hyett6420 said:

I would expect them both to show the same.  Easy way to find out is to fly to a vor and see that both are showing the same deviation when tracking a radial.

I would only expect them both to show the same if the OBS were set the same.

 

@jma201, try setting the OBS on the Garmin (round) CDI to 150 and see what it shows?

[Oldguy]

I am not sure how Avidyne does their startup test, but with the Garmin GPS units, it is half off both GS and LOC. The Aspen unit seems to be showing that deviation, but the Garmin CDI does not.

Question: Are you sure the Garmin CDI is connected to the Avidyne? Seems like a silly question, but the output makes me question it.

As for the actual Avidyne/Aspen connectivity, you may want to ring up @gsxrpilot as he has an Avidyne connected to his Aspen. Slightly different models of each, but I would not think the startup test would differ.

[Oldguy]

@jma201 From the IFD 440 Pilot's Guide. Page 6-59.

 

[jma201]

3 hours ago, Oldguy said:

@jma201 From the IFD 440 Pilot's Guide. Page 6-59.

 

Bingo!  Thank you very much!

 

Mark

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, jma201 said:

Bingo!  Thank you very much!

 

Mark

How does that explain the GI 106A showing right side deflection rather than the left side deflection since its hooked up to your IFD440?

The GI 106A is not autslewing (unlike the Aspen) and it doesn't matter what course the CDI is twisted too.

 

[jma201]

That is still to be resolved.  I'm just glad the E5 as primary is reading correctly.  I'll get it sorted when I get a chance to fly.

[gsxrpilot]

I'd sell the GI 106A and put it towards upgrading the Aspen...

[jma201]

18 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I'd sell the GI 106A and put it towards upgrading the Aspen...

That is in the ultimate plan.  I will also have for sale a STEC ST-901 GPSS roll steering module for sale.  In the meantime I've have the "old way" available as I learn the "new way".  I inquired about just upgrading the E5 at install, but was told the upgrade is not approved yet.  

[MarcK]

If you are acttually tuned to a Localizer, the OBS is ignored. That's only for VORs. If this is just a self-test, then the deflection is per device, and doesn't reflect any real radio reception at all.

I just noticed that your Heading is about 180 degrees from your selected course. If that is the case, with a Localizer, the deflection is correct.

Edited May 15, 2019 by MarcK
Additional info

[bd95r]

@jma201 ....  I see that you are an Aspen E5 user, as am I.  Have you ever experienced any issues described in this post ?

 

 

 

[jma201]

22 hours ago, bd95r said:

@jma201 ....  I see that you are an Aspen E5 user, as am I.  Have you ever experienced any issues described in this post ?

 

 

 

I’ve had no issues with my unit after approximately 50 hrs.  I also have a IFD440 and STEC 50 autopilot.  I’m sorry for your troubles.

[Baker Avionics]

On 5/6/2019 at 1:07 PM, jma201 said:

That is still to be resolved.  I'm just glad the E5 as primary is reading correctly.  I'll get it sorted when I get a chance to fly.

Is any other Avionics Shop checking out their installations prior to delivery or not?  My Goodness this chaps my behind!!!  Sometimes I cannot stand being grouped with shops that have the same "Profession" as ours.  It is true, you need to reset your course to reflect the same as the CDI.  Should you have an issue still, let me know.  @bd95r any luck with yours yet?  If not, shoot me an email with details.  I am in contact with Aspen virtually everyday, not for issues, just because we are close to the Reps and Technical folks.  Let me try to help

[Marauder]

Is any other Avionics Shop checking out their installations prior to delivery or not?  My Goodness this chaps my behind!!!  Sometimes I cannot stand being grouped with shops that have the same "Profession" as ours. 

 

In the 28 years I have owned my Mooney, I have worked with numerous avionics shops on various upgrades. I think the issue is the quality of these shops has gotten worse over the past 15 years. Between the complexity of the newer avionics, the interfaces, multiple vendors and an increased demand for these avionics, many shops are bringing in people who just aren’t properly trained or experienced.

 

Add in a number of owners who just don’t understand what they bought or how to use it, it creates for an interesting environment.

 

 

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[NJMac]

Is any other Avionics Shop checking out their installations prior to delivery or not?  My Goodness this chaps my behind!!!  Sometimes I cannot stand being grouped with shops that have the same "Profession" as ours.  It is true, you need to reset your course to reflect the same as the CDI.  Should you have an issue still, let me know.  [mention=12487]bd95r[/mention] any luck with yours yet?  If not, shoot me an email with details.  I am in contact with Aspen virtually everyday, not for issues, just because we are close to the Reps and Technical folks.  Let me try to help

Yeah, the quality of some had gone down for sure. But that also allows the creme to rise to the top.

I've been telling my installer the attitude is off since I took delivery, still is He said it was sitting right on the tarmac.... Apparently test flying isn't normal.

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[tmo]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

Apparently test flying isn't normal

Doesn't the Mooney Service Manual specify a process for levelling the plane that involves jacking it up, or at least tilting it somewhat?  If so, I would imagine that would be the responsibility of the avionics shop to perform / adjust as per the manual...

[Baker Avionics]

3 hours ago, NJMac said:

Yeah, the quality of some had gone down for sure. But that also allows the creme to rise to the top.

I've been telling my installer the attitude is off since I took delivery, still is He said it was sitting right on the tarmac.... Apparently test flying isn't normal.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk
 

Well, Jason, most of us know about your attitude, in general.....LOL I got a taste of it when I was at Lasar, if you remember...LOL. TOTALLY kidding my friend.... Anyway...there are adjustments that are supposed to be done when the aircraft is level when you are setting these units up and doing configuration.  I am sorry that you are dealing with this and as a bit of advice, Aspen just came out with a new processor that is faster and better.  I just sent back 13 of the ones I have here to get the upgrade at no cost to the customer.  Maybe see if your local shop can take care of you for this as well.  It is for all Evolution MFD and PFD units.

Edited January 1, 2020 by Baker Avionics
Added content

[Baker Avionics]

2 hours ago, tmo said:

Doesn't the Mooney Service Manual specify a process for levelling the plane that involves jacking it up, or at least tilting it somewhat?  If so, I would imagine that would be the responsibility of the avionics shop to perform / adjust as per the manual...

You are correct!!!  

[Baker Avionics]

9 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

In the 28 years I have owned my Mooney, I have worked with numerous avionics shops on various upgrades. I think the issue is the quality of these shops has gotten worse over the past 15 years. Between the complexity of the newer avionics, the interfaces, multiple vendors and an increased demand for these avionics, many shops are bringing in people who just aren’t properly trained or experienced.

 

Add in a number of owners who just don’t understand what they bought or how to use it, it creates for an interesting environment.

 

 

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It is SO funny you bring this subject up.  I called a buddy of mine, who is an Avionics Manager in Minnesota.  We have never shook hands, but have stayed in contact for the past 20 or so years by default because one day one of us called the other for help, obviously he called me (Ahem!!!), I seriously do not remember, but we have bounced things off of each other, helped each other out and such throughout the years.  We both have been doing this for about 30 years now and we were discussing this very subject.  To us, Avionics is actually getting easier for us.  We are used to the 10 wire Altitude encoder, OBS lines, Sine/Cosine, XYZ, blah blah blah that USED to happen with avionics.  Now with them being mostly digital, not a lot can go wrong and it is mostly configuration or pure workmanship that are causes.  We laughed at having to allow these "kids" struggle through the troubleshooting process trying to figure things out and we think to ourselves, "My GOD, it is this!!!! Can't you see it?"  It is a new generation and we are trying our best to train this new influx of technicians and we need to let them fail and learn by research because a ton of knowledge comes from figuring out how the systems work.  

[Marauder]

It is SO funny you bring this subject up.  I called a buddy of mine, who is an Avionics Manager in Minnesota.  We have never shook hands, but have stayed in contact for the past 20 or so years by default because one day one of us called the other for help, obviously he called me (Ahem!!!), I seriously do not remember, but we have bounced things off of each other, helped each other out and such throughout the years.  We both have been doing this for about 30 years now and we were discussing this very subject.  To us, Avionics is actually getting easier for us.  We are used to the 10 wire Altitude encoder, OBS lines, Sine/Cosine, XYZ, blah blah blah that USED to happen with avionics.  Now with them being mostly digital, not a lot can go wrong and it is mostly configuration or pure workmanship that are causes.  We laughed at having to allow these "kids" struggle through the troubleshooting process trying to figure things out and we think to ourselves, "My GOD, it is this!!!! Can't you see it?"  It is a new generation and we are trying our best to train this new influx of technicians and we need to let them fail and learn by research because a ton of knowledge comes from figuring out how the systems work.  

Unfortunately for us customers, it means another trip back to the shop if they don’t catch their mistake. Here is my example. I have an STEC 60-2 with a flight Director connected to my Aspen. The way it was installed was to allow me to use the flight director with the autopilot servos turned off. In this mode, the single cue FD provides me guidance while I am hand flying.

The shop that did the last upgrade thought it was wired incorrectly and disabled that capability. You can imagine my surprise when I turned it on and saw nothing. When I called the shop, the tech who did it had no clue that was a possibility. The shop owner who also is the lead tech also didn’t know it could be wired that way.

I agree the days of pulling out the oscilloscope are pretty much gone today. But it has been replaced with a much needed understanding of configurations and intended product usage. The last two shop visits I made, both shops asked if I knew any good electronics techs. Like the pilot shortage, I think we are seeing difficulty in pulling people in avionics and maintenance roles for GA.


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[Marauder]

And of course it doesn’t help when a bunch of old pilots figured out its time to blow their kid’s inheritance on avionics...


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[Baker Avionics]

11 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Unfortunately for us customers, it means another trip back to the shop if they don’t catch their mistake. Here is my example. I have an STEC 60-2 with a flight Director connected to my Aspen. The way it was installed was to allow me to use the flight director with the autopilot servos turned off. In this mode, the single cue FD provides me guidance while I am hand flying.

The shop that did the last upgrade thought it was wired incorrectly and disabled that capability. You can imagine my surprise when I turned it on and saw nothing. When I called the shop, the tech who did it had no clue that was a possibility. The shop owner who also is the lead tech also didn’t know it could be wired that way.

I agree the days of pulling out the oscilloscope are pretty much gone today. But it has been replaced with a much needed understanding of configurations and intended product usage. The last two shop visits I made, both shops asked if I knew any good electronics techs. Like the pilot shortage, I think we are seeing difficulty in pulling people in avionics and maintenance roles for GA.


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I agree and with the generation that thinks they are smarter than everyone and they do not need guidance. this industry is in dire need of real technicians and real personalities alike both as pilots and maintenance folks.  Our shop is pretty much young as well, but I personally am training all of them without any bad habits instilled in them already as they are my kids.  I have a smarter than hell 15 year old that is just one of the most motivated people I have ever met and is driven in life.  He is learning this trade at this age to the extent of home school bored him because the teacher couldn't keep up with his work as he was working ahead.  He is full time now at the shop and currently him and I are the only ones here at the shop today working on a Sportsman and a school 172.  He is, right now, drilling and mounting the IFD and KX155 in the center stack.  Drilling, positioning, terminating wires, coax cables and tie up better than his 22 year old brother.  He literally just came and asked where the Tinnermans are.  A 15 year old!  He gets mad when I come in without him.  LOL.  The main thing is, WE are responsible to inculcate this type of behavior, ethic and initiative into this generation and it is up to us to make sure the future is taken care of as well.  I am hoping to hand this over in a few years because I getting too old and fat to be doing this much longer...LOL