Trade offs between an F and J model

[Hank]

1 hour ago, rbridges said:

I'm still wrapping my mind around that.  You've flown 10 hours nonstop?

Yeah, Mikey's a little out there. Long range tanks, LOP, Carson's Speed, etc.

[kris_adams]

7 hours ago, Marauder said:

I do the same. Once I am configured for cruise, I slide the seat all the way back and enjoy being able to stretch my legs.

 

Yep me too, especially as I have to fly in the forward most hole due to my height challenges lol

[201er]

1 hour ago, rbridges said:

I'm still wrapping my mind around that.  You've flown 10 hours nonstop?

NJ to Key West in 7 hours

Denver to NJ in 9 hours

Phoenix to Chicago in 9 hours

Dallas to NJ in 8 hours

NJ to Winnipeg in 8 hours

NJ to San Marcos Texas into a headwind in 11 hours

 

There’s a few off the top of my head. And yes I wear a halo, fly LOP, and slide my seat back. Those of you who don’t slide your seat back in cruise should try it some time, maybe you’ll go farther faster on less fuel 

[steingar]

I think that when they were built, in the sixties and early seventies, the short body Mooneys fit four average sized adults.  Now they don't, we Americans have gotten bigger in most dimensions.  One of the reasons I bought a short body Mooney is I knew I'd be able to put folks in the back seat, given that I look up to Tyrion Lannister.  Taller folks would have a harder time.  That said, my buddy is 6'2" and we put his tall (ish) stepdaughter behind him.  Everyone was OK, though I wouldn't want to fly to Florida that way.  I really don't think a short body Mooney is a true 4 seater in 2019 America.  But I've suffered enough disadvatages due to my diminished stature, I was happy to reap one of the advantages.  i think my Mooney M20c is the biggest bang for my buck in GA.  I don't think there's a way you go go faster on less expense unless you go experimental, and even then it isn't easily done.

[Marauder]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

I'm still wrapping my mind around that.  You've flown 10 hours nonstop?

And he has the filled Gatorade bottles to prove it 

[Bob_Belville]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

Bob, you must either have a magic touch or you offered those people a lot of money  to act so comfortable.

Actually what I think nobody mentioned is the pilot's comfort with rear seat passengers on short vs mid body. When I slide forward to be in the pedals for takeoff and landing, there is a ridiculous amount of space behind me. However, except for a local sightseeing flight, I don’t want to sit the whole trip that way. My J allows me to slide back and get comfortable and still allow an adult to sit comfortably behind me. In a short body, someone is getting their knees busted, the only question is in the front or the rear seat depending on seat position! 

Mike, good observation. The same is true even in a car.

(Here's a pic from a 4+ hour trip to SnF several years ago.)

[201er]

15 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Mike, good observation. The same is true even in a car.

About the magic touch or the giving people money to look comfortable?

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, 201er said:

About the magic touch or the giving people money to look comfortable?

You know Mike, in 50 years of flying I don't think I've ever had an unhappy passenger getting a free ride in a sweet chariot flown by a confidence inspiring captain.  

(Well there was one kid who was practically drug on the plane by his grandmother who had hopes that he'd like it once in the air. He didn't - flight lasted about 6 minutes.) 

[Marauder]

Mike, good observation. The same is true even in a car.
(Here's a pic from a 4+ hour trip to SnF several years ago.)

Hey! Are those things I see in the baggage area your rear seat passenger’s legs?

How about someone post some real pictures of the room behind the seats for the various models. I know there were some comments about the baggage area being bigger on the mid bodies. I happened to have measured mine (F model). 24”




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[Bob_Belville]

8 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Hey! Are those things I see in the baggage area your rear seat passenger’s legs?

How about someone post some real pictures of the room behind the seats for the various models. I know there were some comments about the baggage area being bigger on the mid bodies. I happened to have measured mine (F model). 24”




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

The rear seat passenger, Joey, was a brand new pilot at the time and stayed in that position much of the flight, interested in the flight which included a fair amount of IMC and the Lake Parker Arrival into LAL. My panel was a few months old and my co-pilot is his instructor so he was drinking it all in.

I'll measure my baggage area but I'm pretty sure it will be 5" shorter than yours. But 100# at station 93 with anyone in the back seat will put me behind the rear limit on W&B chart anyway. 

[steingar]

Actually, I sat in the back seat of an Echo once for an hour behind a couple fairly big guys.  It was a bit tight, but definitely doable.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I'll measure my baggage area but I'm pretty sure it will be 5" shorter than yours. But 100# at station 93 with anyone in the back seat will put me behind the rear limit on W&B chart anyway. 

Hey, look! An unexpected side benefit of that heavy 3-blade airbrake on my nose!  My back seat and baggage area are both useful.

[gsxrpilot]

13 hours ago, Hank said:

Once I get the seat right and comfortable, it doesn't move again until I get out. Adjusting the seat and my hindquarters three times per flight is REE-dickulois! (Close for Takeoff; back away for cruise; pull back up to land). I don't do my car like that, and one of 'em's got power seats! Who slides their car seats around for driving in town, then resets the seats to cruise down the interstate so they can reset them on the exit ramp???

Do you have an autopilot? I don't have an autopilot in my BMW and that's why my seat usually stays in position, (cruise control is no good). But in the Mooney, with a good autopilot, once "George" has taken the controls, yes, the seat goes back, I stretch out and enjoy the ride and the view.

[gsxrpilot]

I rode in the back of my own M20C once behind a 6' front seater. I wouldn't have wanted to be there for 3 hours, but for an hour or so, it was fine.

I'm with Bob in that since I don't have kids that have to travel with Mom and Dad, my back seats are for people who WANT to ride along. And so I've never had a complaint. I consider my K a 2+2 and am happy it is. Kinda like my BMW. If I was more of a Suburban kinda guy, I'd be flying an A36.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Do you have an autopilot? I don't have an autopilot in my BMW and that's why my seat usually stays in position, (cruise control is no good). But in the Mooney, with a good autopilot, once "George" has taken the controls, yes, the seat goes back, I stretch out and enjoy the ride and the view.

Brittain pushes the Mooney around, but no altitude adjustments / holds. If I slide the seat back, I have to retrim; then when I slide the seat forward again, I have to retrim again. In my truck and the wife's car, cruise control works pretty well, if the hills aren't too steep [or the truck loaded too heavy]. Strap in, get comfortable, go.

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, Hank said:

Brittain pushes the Mooney around, but no altitude adjustments / holds. If I slide the seat back, I have to retrim; then when I slide the seat forward again, I have to retrim again. In my truck and the wife's car, cruise control works pretty well, if the hills aren't too steep [or the truck loaded too heavy]. Strap in, get comfortable, go.

Yeah, then moving the seat around doesn't make as much sense.The KFC150 has rate of climb, and altitude pre-select. So usually by pattern altitude, if we're going far, the seat is sliding back and I'll let the autopilot get us to altitude and get us there.

[Hank]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Yeah, then moving the seat around doesn't make as much sense.The KFC150 has rate of climb, and altitude pre-select. So usually by pattern altitude, if we're going far, the seat is sliding back and I'll let the autopilot get us to altitude and get us there.

I tried sliding the seat all the way back a couple of times for improved efficiency, didn't notice anything at the fuel pump. Maybe because I'm already in the next-to-last hole? If I go past that, the seat is free-sliding until a bump pushes it forward to lock in place. Just not worth the trouble.

What did you do in your C???

[gsxrpilot]

13 minutes ago, Hank said:

I tried sliding the seat all the way back a couple of times for improved efficiency, didn't notice anything at the fuel pump. Maybe because I'm already in the next-to-last hole? If I go past that, the seat is free-sliding until a bump pushes it forward to lock in place. Just not worth the trouble.

What did you do in your C???

I had an Stec30 with altitude hold in the C. So once settled down in cruise, with the altitude hold on, I'd slide the seat back. But I'm only 5'10" with short legs and too much belly.  so I like to be back out of the way of the yoke if I'm not needed on the peddles. 

Like you, I never saw any difference in speed or fuel burn.

[johncuyle]

On ‎4‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 12:17 PM, gsxrpilot said:

You've got two great responses there. There really isn't anything else to add. 

Fourth post.  And, 7 pages later...

[gsxrpilot]

Can't help myself! 

Hello, my name is Paul, and I'm a MS addict.

[Kmac]

51 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I rode in the back of my own M20C once behind a 6' front seater. I wouldn't have wanted to be there for 3 hours, but for an hour or so, it was fine.

I'm with Bob in that since I don't have kids that have to travel with Mom and Dad, my back seats are for people who WANT to ride along. And so I've never had a complaint. I consider my K a 2+2 and am happy it is. Kinda like my BMW. If I was more of a Suburban kinda guy, I'd be flying an A36.

If you have kids, you know it doesn't matter if you have a short body, long body, or your own 747 they will complain...

If you have someone that WANTS a ride there shouldn't be any complaints...

If you have someone that NEEDS a ride there shouldn't be any complaints...

We all fit in the short body, that is all I could afford, and that is what we have...

[johncuyle]

17 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Can't help myself! 

Hello, my name is Paul, and I'm a MS addict.

It's cool, your contemplation of the possibility of retiring from your K model to a J-modded E also makes you my spirit guide.  You can go first and let me know how much I'll regret doing it.  Or not doing it sooner, or something.  I nearly bought an E with J mods and I go back and forth between loving the peace and quiet of the high teens and wishing I didn't need so much runway to get off the ground.

[Bob_Belville]

14 hours ago, 201er said:

Who can stay feet on the pedals for 10 hours straight!? Takes all of a few second to slide back or slide up again. Plus you probably make up for those few seconds in going a knot faster. Sheesh every Mooneyhole knows that! 

I agree! On a longer flight I move the seat back and forth several times. Always seeking a more comfortable back side. Even with ALTHLD the pitch needs to be trimmed any time a seat moves - it's not like there much else to do at 10,000' with GPSS and ALTHLD except flipping ATC freqs every 10 minutes or so. And I take off and land in the 2nd hole from the front for visibility over the nose. I slide back at least one position once airborne. 

[Shadrach]

54 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I had an Stec30 with altitude hold in the C. So once settled down in cruise, with the altitude hold on, I'd slide the seat back. But I'm only 5'10" with short legs and too much belly.  so I like to be back out of the way of the yoke if I'm not needed on the peddles. 

Like you, I never saw any difference in speed or fuel burn.

I see a slight increase in speed when I slide back.  If you have to re-trim for nose down you are removing induced drag and you will pick up a little speed, just not enough to be more then a rounding error...

[Bob_Belville]

4 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I'll measure my baggage area but I'm pretty sure it will be 5" shorter than yours. But 100# at station 93 with anyone in the back seat will put me behind the rear limit on W&B chart anyway. 

Baggage area in my E is 19-1/2" at the floor, front to back.

FWIW, if anyone want to compare I measured 28" from the front end of the seat track to the face of the rear seat (which is the spar faced with leather panel). I suspect that mid bodies will be about 33".