I Win the Slow Learner Award

[MBDiagMan]

I FINALLY associated my bad landings with a lack of nose up trim.  I never claimed to be the sharpest tack in the box.

I have come to the conclusion that given plenty of nose up trim, a Mooney is every bit as much of a pussycat to land as a 150 or 172.  I scrubbed some impressive landings with my Son in Law in the plane last Friday.  He is a really impressive pilot, so I was happy to show off.  Then early this week doing some approaches and the instructor holding me up simulating looking for the runway from the clouds, I had to drop it down from being too high and too fast and didn’t manage to get it trimmed out as I normally do on a long stabilzed approach.  I did some terrible landings and went away shaking my head.  It occurred to me later that I probably didn’t trim enough.  When I got back to the airport I looked and sure enough the trim was at takeoff setting,  We took a trip to Shreveport downtown, shot an approach, came home and did another.  I trimmed nose up both times and greased it both times.

This is finally ingrained in my pea brain.

[Yetti]

I rarely land full flaps.   Just when I screwed up the pattern and I am high.   So even half flaps I have been known to grab two handfuls of trim wheel right over the numbers.  or over the proverbial fence.   But I am using decreasing energy method all the way down.

[Hank]

11 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I rarely land full flaps.   Just when I screwed up the pattern and I am high.   So even half flaps I have been known to grab two handfuls of trim wheel right over the numbers.  or over the proverbial fence.   But I am using decreasing energy method all the way down.

Me too, but I rarely trim that low, I just move the yoke. Dropping the plane off for annual last week (a first for me! Hopefully back to owner-assisted next year) I actually rolled the wheels on with no perceptible bump or chirp. Of course I was alone, just the two Cessna trainers I landed between. 

[vorlon1]

28 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

I FINALLY associated my bad landings with a lack of nose up trim.  I never claimed to be the sharpest tack in the box.

I have come to the conclusion that given plenty of nose up trim, a Mooney is every bit as much of a pussycat to land as a 150 or 172.  I scrubbed some impressive landings with my Son in Law in the plane last Friday.  He is a really impressive pilot, so I was happy to show off.  Then early this week doing some approaches and the instructor holding me up simulating looking for the runway from the clouds, I had to drop it down from being too high and too fast and didn’t manage to get it trimmed out as I normally do on a long stabilzed approach.  I did some terrible landings and went away shaking my head.  It occurred to me later that I probably didn’t trim enough.  When I got back to the airport I looked and sure enough the trim was at takeoff setting,  We took a trip to Shreveport downtown, shot an approach, came home and did another.  I trimmed nose up both times and greased it both times.

This is finally ingrained in my pea brain.

I transitioned to my C model from a club-based 182, which took tons of trim to properly land. I think the 182 ended up being good 'trainer' for me.

[DonMuncy]

11 minutes ago, Hank said:

 I actually rolled the wheels on with no perceptible bump or chirp. Of course I was alone, just the two Cessna trainers I landed between. 

Don't you know that the quality of one's landing is always inversely proportional to the number of observers.  

[Hank]

30 minutes ago, vorlon1 said:

I transitioned to my C model from a club-based 182, which took tons of trim to properly land. I think the 182 ended up being good 'trainer' for me.

I did it the other way. With 7 years of M20-C ownership under my belt, I used a Flight Review to get the HP Endorsement in a 182. Trim, trim, trim alike, but the 182 needed a lot more power on short final, until past the numbers. I'm usually at idle well before the numbers in my C.

[Yetti]

Every good landing will go unseen.

[Bryan]

50 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Don't you know that the quality of one's landing is always inversely proportional to the number of observers.  

Excellent observation - I might have to steal that someday.

[MBDiagMan]

4 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

Don't you know that the quality of one's landing is always inversely proportional to the number of observers.  

Absolutely correct Don!  I have made a few REALLY great taildragger landings in challenging conditions on the numbers of runway 17 at Mount Pleasant.  It is down hill there from the terminal which means the only people in position to see it are the ones who might be in the run up box.  There’s never been anyone in the box when I’ve managed to do a two point landing in a three point attitude with a heavy, gusty crosswind.  Maybe though that’s why I pulled it off.  The pressure of an audience might have caused me to choke.

I sure am tickled that I know what my problem has been.  I really feel like I have figured out the key.  I might be slow, but I learn eventually.

[MBDiagMan]

1 hour ago, Yetti said:

I rarely land full flaps.   Just when I screwed up the pattern and I am high.   So even half flaps I have been known to grab two handfuls of trim wheel right over the numbers.  or over the proverbial fence.   But I am using decreasing energy method all the way down.

I had no trouble with my C once I started landing with no flaps.  When I got the F/J, my close friend who checked me out encouraged me to land with full flaps.  It seems to me full flap landings are near impossible without lots of nose up trim.  Took awhile, but I think that is indeed the key.

[Hank]

4 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I had no trouble with my C once I started landing with no flaps.  When I got the F/J, my close friend who checked me out encouraged me to land with full flaps.  It seems to me full flap landings are near impossible without lots of nose up trim.  Took awhile, but I think that is indeed the key.

My C lands very well with Takeoff Flaps, but the handful of landings I made in a friend's F, Full Flaps worked much, much better. All landings are better when you trim for hands-free flying on all legs in the pattern.

[GDGR]

Best landing advice I ever read on here was tontrim the nose up, until you practically have to push the yoke down. 

[carusoam]

1) Trimming for speed, always works.... hands off, the nose neither rises or sinks...if it sinks... trim up

2) Flaps down, requires more trim than the T/O flap setting gives...  the aft movement of the center of lift, caused by the flaps, makes the nose go down... trim, trim, trim, just to balance the flap / Cl relationship...

3) Not Adding a hefty dose of trim means... you are getting a good arm work out holding the nose up...

4) If you are busy getting an arm work out... the smoothness in your landing will look more like you are doing reps in the gym.... 

5) each time you add flaps, add the same amount of trim... you get used to how much that is...   with modern electric flaps and trim... both motors are geared to run for the exact same amount of time.... push the flap switch and the trim switch at the same time... (O experience)

PP thoughts only... not a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

7 hours ago, Hank said:

My C lands very well with Takeoff Flaps, but the handful of landings I made in a friend's F, Full Flaps worked much, much better. All landings are better when you trim for hands-free flying on all legs in the pattern.

Yes, my C was a pussycat with no flaps or takeoff flaps.  The F is different.  I think I finally have it tamed though.  I normally keep it trimmed all the time, but it was a beast when I had to bring it out of the sky quickly, got busy and didn’t get in the nose up trim before being close to the ground.  I had gotten where I felt good with it and was probably getting cocky.  Thats what led me to realizing I had not gotten it trimmed.  I also I am learning how to put the speed brakes into the picture.

The exciting part is that I am flying it enough now, to learn the airplane.

[Browncbr1]

10 hours ago, GLJA said:

Best landing advice I ever read on here was tontrim the nose up, until you practically have to push the yoke down. 

Yep, that’s what I do.  Sometimes I’m trimming right before flair too and have trimmed in flair before when I didn’t get enough.  

[DAVIDWH]

 

80 on final,

Full up trim, half flaps, speed brakes extended,

And the infamous shock disc Mooney bounces disappear into the ether.

(Speed brakes optional, can do without, just a habit.)

[Marauder]

Yes, my C was a pussycat with no flaps or takeoff flaps.  The F is different.  I think I finally have it tamed though.  I normally keep it trimmed all the time, but it was a beast when I had to bring it out of the sky quickly, got busy and didn’t get in the nose up trim before being close to the ground.  I had gotten where I felt good with it and was probably getting cocky.  Thats what led me to realizing I had not gotten it trimmed.  I also I am learning how to put the speed brakes into the picture.
The exciting part is that I am flying it enough now, to learn the airplane.

And if you want to be the “King of F Greasers”, you find that right trim that you need for a decent flare. I’m a cheater and use the electric trim a bit.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[jaylw314]

18 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I FINALLY associated my bad landings with a lack of nose up trim.  I never claimed to be the sharpest tack in the box.

I have come to the conclusion that given plenty of nose up trim, a Mooney is every bit as much of a pussycat to land as a 150 or 172.  I scrubbed some impressive landings with my Son in Law in the plane last Friday.  He is a really impressive pilot, so I was happy to show off.  Then early this week doing some approaches and the instructor holding me up simulating looking for the runway from the clouds, I had to drop it down from being too high and too fast and didn’t manage to get it trimmed out as I normally do on a long stabilzed approach.  I did some terrible landings and went away shaking my head.  It occurred to me later that I probably didn’t trim enough.  When I got back to the airport I looked and sure enough the trim was at takeoff setting,  We took a trip to Shreveport downtown, shot an approach, came home and did another.  I trimmed nose up both times and greased it both times.

This is finally ingrained in my pea brain.

I recall a Rod Machado seminar where he talked about trimming before the roundout/flare.  Traditional teaching says don't do it, but he pointed out it has its benefits so it's worth testing.  With up trim before the flare, your yoke pressures will start lower during the maneuver, which means you get more informative feedback from it.  It's much easier to feel (and control) a change in back pressure of 2 lbs when you're starting at 5 lbs instead of 10 lbs.  It also makes it easier for weaklings

The downside, of course, would be distraction during a busy phase of flight (helpful to have electric trim), and more importantly, increased down elevator required during a go-around.  If you're going to use more up trim, you'll want to practice go-arounds so it doesn't suprise you how much forward yoke is required.

Even electric trim can be tough.  I recall during my IR training during an approach in actual IMC, trying to make a radio call while trimming the plane.  All of a sudden, I had no idea what my left hand was doing, and I started mashing the mike button trying to trim the plane out.  It took me several seconds to figure out why that wasn't working.

I should also point out that more nose up trim means you're approach speed is slower, right?  I've found that on some days, landing a little faster gives me the little extra time I need to make adjustments, while other days, flying a little slower gives me less time and keeps me from overthinking it.  Unfortunately, my brain is a little harder to predict than the plane...

[MARZ]

48 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I should also point out that more nose up trim means you're approach speed is slower, right?  

Course, as always, with that "up trim" one must be prepared for the flurry of activity on the go around - or the dreaded touch n go....  

 

[M016576]

On 2/1/2019 at 2:23 PM, Hank said:

Me too, but I rarely trim that low, I just move the yoke. Dropping the plane off for annual last week (a first for me! Hopefully back to owner-assisted next year) I actually rolled the wheels on with no perceptible bump or chirp. Of course I was alone, just the two Cessna trainers I landed between. 

Funny you say that... landed after a student pilot in a 172 on 25R at DVT a few weeks back.... I cleared at A9... about 2000’ down... and was talking to ground before the 172 turned off the runway at A5- another 1500’ down the runway!  

Who says Mooney’s are slippery?!?!

[TTaylor]

On 2/1/2019 at 3:53 PM, MBDiagMan said:

I had no trouble with my C once I started landing with no flaps.  When I got the F/J, my close friend who checked me out encouraged me to land with full flaps.  It seems to me full flap landings are near impossible without lots of nose up trim.  Took awhile, but I think that is indeed the key.

I found there are significant differences between the C and F, and may also be because of hydraulic flaps versus electric. With the 63 C, I found I was better with two pumps of flap (about half) on landing. With the 75 F with electric flaps, I found it was much better with full flaps but up-trim was critical to get it slowed down and not have too much force on the yoke at flare. 

[steingar]

Thankfully I use lots of nose up trim.  I associate my bad landings with my own inabilities as a pilot.

[Yetti]

On 2/2/2019 at 10:56 AM, Mike Ropers said:

Course, as always, with that "up trim" one must be prepared for the flurry of activity on the go around - or the dreaded touch n go....  

 

If you land half flaps you will find that on go around you will be at around take off trim and it's not so bad of the dreaded pitch up.

Edited February 5, 2019 by Yetti

[MBDiagMan]

7 hours ago, TTaylor said:

I found there are significant differences between the C and F, and may also be because of hydraulic flaps versus electric. With the 63 C, I found I was better with two pumps of flap (about half) on landing. With the 75 F with electric flaps, I found it was much better with full flaps but up-trim was critical to get it slowed down and not have too much force on the yoke at flare. 

My F has hyd flaps identical to those in my C.

[gsxrpilot]

5 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

My F has hyd flaps identical to those in my C.

Some F's have hydraulic flaps, some electric. Some F's have manual gear, some have electric. The F's straddle the line between the two systems.