Anybody install an angle of attack indicator?

[DaV8or]

This seems to be the front runner in AOA indicators. Alpha Systems AOA  I'm kind of sold on the value of this instrument. Wish I knew more about them when I started my panel job. Oh well, it's always something. Just wondering if anyone has put one in a Mooney.

[carusoam]

Dave,

There was a thread on this a while ago.  I cannot find it.  Search gives nothing back....maybe something on the blink.

Best regards,

-a-

[thinwing]

Dave..you could be the first...I know aoa s have been around for a long time.I once owned a Maule m5 rocket that a previous owner had installed.The theory ,as i understand it .no matter what the load the wing will always stall at the same AOA...so instead of using airspeed...it was the AOA indicator...the maule could land in 400 ft at max aoa with a hanging on the prop approach....this is supposed to eliminate stall/spins on base to final legs..kpc

[thinwing]

Of course ,i can get into a 40 ft strip with the right approach in a Bell 47...so I guess its "who wants to fly a mooney that close to the ragged edge???..kpc

[carusoam]

Thinwing,

I think the advantage of the AOA (at least for me) was to know how far away from critical I am actually flying.  To not build in excessive extra margin. 

The stall warning horn does this to some extent, but it is only a single point of data that comes on pretty close to the final stall.  You really wouldn't want to fly with it blaring continuously, then there would be no additional warning of the impending stall if things were to deteriorate.

In the end, AOA is probably a belt and suspenders measurement.  Keep your speed at book numbers for the proper weight and the AOA will take care of itself.  I would still like the extra cross reference if it were available....

400ft landing distance in a Mooney would be spectacular!

Best regards,

-a-

[John Pleisse]

The recent AOPA article was great and I think for such a small dollar amount (Alpha AOA), its not money wasted and it is not cockpit clutter. That famous Mooney crash in Tyler TX with the long time factory test pilot and two other high timers on board is a great example of where a gatget like this could help. Base to final and pattern environment stall spin risk.

[201er]

My '78 201 came with one pre-installed since like the 80s. To be quite honest I have found it to be completely useless so far. It's a bit to the side of the panel (first thing to the left of radio stack) so when I'm slow and have a lot on my mind, that's the last place I'm looking. I can take glances at the airspeed and isntruments right in front of me but to take my focus off just to pay attention to the AOA would cost too much attention compared to what it's worth. Then again I'm VFR only for now so I dunno if it has much use for IFR. It's pretty easy to tell by looking out the window, feel, and airspeed when you're getting close to a stall even without it.

[thinwing]

I remember the aoa in the Maule was mounted way over to the right...pretty useless unless you like neck crinks....and the only way I could land a Mooney in 400 ft would be with the gear tucked up where the moon dont shinesinc kp couch

[John Pleisse]

The new one is digital and makes noise...so you would not look at it unless it chirped at you. Then you would have an arrow pointing where you should....99% of the time, down.

[jetdriven]

The only airplanes I have seen them factory installed in were Lears.   Turboprops, commuter jets and even the 747 all have the proper approach speed (vREF) based on weight, and the AOA takes care of itself. 

[Parker_Woodruff]

The wing will always stall at the same Angle of Attack.  Of course that makes an AoA indicator a very nice utility.  However, coordination is especially important because it's possible to have one wing stalled and the other one not...just focusing on an AoA indicator with poor coordination could potentially lead to a spin.

[Bennett]

I had one in my DOVA-DV1 (Czech built LSA) that displayed on the Dynon screens. It required a special airspeed / AOA probe. Perhaps I never got it correctly calibrated, but I found it essentially worthless. The airplane let you know very clearly when it was approaching a stall (and it was really hard to get it to stall in the convential sense). Even with the presentation on the main glass panel, there were far more things to look at than the AOA indicator - like airspeed, and the horizon. Yes, I know you can stall at any speed, but as a practical matter I found no use in the device. Maybe an aural warning might be more useful and helpful.  

[glenn reynolds]

I installed an AOA (alpha Brand) in my prior aircraft a C182.  I had over a thousand hours time in type and was stunned by the information that I got from the unit.  To cover the significant areas: Base turn to final.  We know this can be a killer, yet my AOA showed that my routine pattern speeds and turns were not even close to a caution light on the AOA the data was so compelling I climbed to eight thousand feet and did some steep turns at stall speed and found that I had MUCH more margin than I had thought, this allows me to focus on scanning for aircraft and the pre-landing as I no longer had to worry about a stall and YES I absolutely keep the AOA display constantly in my field of vision.  Second benefit.  Came off a tight valley strip flying against incoming wall of fog.  I needed every once of performance the plane could give me.  The AOA meant I was 1,000 feet above the fog bank which I never could have done with out it.  finally, the AOA took an easy hundred feet of landing distance off my landings.  Frankly this was the best $1,000 bucks I've spent on the airplane and I'm now installing an AOA on my M20R.  Thanks for listening

[carusoam]

Welcome out into the light, Glenn.

Nice Pirep.  Thanks for sharing the details.

Best regards,

-a-

[Robert C.]

Yep, I have the Alpha Systems "Classic" or "Legacy". I can never remember what it is called. Installed on the glareshield near the middle so its either in my peripheral vision or close to it on final.

Love it.

There is a good 5 kts difference between the approach speeds when I'm light vs heavy, which is quite an eye opener. Yes you can memorize all the 1.3Vso speeds for different weights, but I'd rather glance at the indicator and not rely on my memory . If I'm careful to fly at the blue doughnut on approach and pull the throttle over the numbers and bleed off the rest of the speed the landings are easy and you'll never again be too fast to miss the 1st turn-off (...I did say IF I'm careful...) 

Now when I turn to final and find myself overshooting the turn (hey I've never claimed to be perfect  ) I tighten the turn (increase bank) and glance at the AOA to check I don't go below the blue doughnut. Great peace of mind. And yes, steepening the bank WILL cause several lights to extinguish and get me close to the blue doughnut while the ASI doesn't budge.

I agree with Glenn that is money well spent.

Robert

[N9201A]

This is consistent with what others who've adopted it have told me...better awareness of differences at various weights, being able to have depicted critical info in one's peripheral vision ... have to look at this. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[201er]

It's just a gadget 

[DaV8or]

5 minutes ago, 201er said:

It's just a gadget 

Yes. Apparently one that you find useless. Your quote from 6/16/11-

My '78 201 came with one pre-installed since like the 80s. To be quite honest I have found it to be completely useless so far. It's a bit to the side of the panel (first thing to the left of radio stack) so when I'm slow and have a lot on my mind, that's the last place I'm looking. I can take glances at the airspeed and isntruments right in front of me but to take my focus off just to pay attention to the AOA would cost too much attention compared to what it's worth. Then again I'm VFR only for now so I dunno if it has much use for IFR. It's pretty easy to tell by looking out the window, feel, and airspeed when you're getting close to a stall even without it.

 

[201er]

14 minutes ago, DaV8or said:

Oh wow, that's still up. Didn't realize posts from the old site were still around.

Yeah, it's true. For about the first year I had my Mooney it's how I felt. Remember how I said I was taught by inept instructors that don't understand/teach angle of attack? Even during my Mooney transition training it was all about "airspeed."

So, having been brainwashed by poor instructing all my life, my first impression was who cares? But about a year since flying with both an ASI and AOAi, I began to make some discoveries. I realized that I was a fool for flying primarily by reference to airspeed. I realized how the AOAi was more useful, more consistent, and more reliable. I began to realize how my AOA in some "fast" turns was lower than in some "slow" straight-aheads. Nobody taught me this, it was mostly self discovery with the AOAi and then doing further reading.

I began to see angle of attack mistakes in my older flying videos. Airspeed was good (based on how I was taught), AOA was way higher than I thought at the time. I gained confidence in the AOAi by flying airspeeds, reading the AOAi, and then adjusting to airspeeds that would suit the AOA. Discovering I could still comfortably fly that much slower when lighter was good. My approaches and departures got better. I was able to land short, takeoff with greater confidence, climb for best performance, and have a greater extent awareness of my lift reserve regardless of conditions, weight, or load. My bird takes 600lbs of gas so I shift between gross and light weight quite frequently.

Back then, the simple analog display seemed lacking. At this point I appreciate it better than a fancy new lit up display. When the needle on my old analog one swings, I not only get AOA information but also a good indication of rate of change. If my AOA begins to increase in a turn, I may leave my pitch the same because I can predict that I will stop increasing bank before the AOA becomes higher than I want. On the other hand if the AOA is increasing quickly, I can match the rate with downward pitch (and a power increase if necessary).

Like most of the old timers here, I was resistant at first. But when I realized the shear brilliance and simplicity, I don't think I'd own an airplane without one again. At that point, I was dumb and stubborn like most of you 

Edited September 17, 2016 by 201er

[Cyril Gibb]

Even with a smiley emoticon, calling most people on MooneySpace "dumb and stubborn" is probably not the most persuasive way forward.

[DaV8or]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

Oh wow, that's still up. Didn't realize posts from the old site were still around.

Yeah, it's true. For about the first year I had my Mooney it's how I felt. Remember how I said I was taught by inept instructors that don't understand/teach angle of attack? Even during my Mooney transition training it was all about "airspeed."

So, having been brainwashed by poor instructing all my life, my first impression was who cares? But about a year since flying with both an ASI and AOAi, I began to make some discoveries. I realized that I was a fool for flying primarily by reference to airspeed. I realized how the AOAi was more useful, more consistent, and more reliable. I began to realize how my AOA in some "fast" turns was lower than in some "slow" straight-aheads. Nobody taught me this, it was mostly self discovery with the AOAi and then doing further reading.

I began to see angle of attack mistakes in my older flying videos. Airspeed was good (based on how I was taught), AOA was way higher than I thought at the time. I gained confidence in the AOAi by flying airspeeds, reading the AOAi, and then adjusting to airspeeds that would suit the AOA. Discovering I could still comfortably fly that much slower when lighter was good. My approaches and departures got better. I was able to land short, takeoff with greater confidence, climb for best performance, and have a greater extent awareness of my lift reserve regardless of conditions, weight, or load. My bird takes 600lbs of gas so I shift between gross and light weight quite frequently.

Back then, the simple analog display seemed lacking. At this point I appreciate it better than a fancy new lit up display. When the needle on my old analog one swings, I not only get AOA information but also a good indication of rate of change. If my AOA begins to increase in a turn, I may leave my pitch the same because I can predict that I will stop increasing bank before the AOA becomes higher than I want. On the other hand if the AOA is increasing quickly, I can match the rate with downward pitch (and a power increase if necessary).

Like most of the old timers here, I was resistant at first. But when I realized the shear brilliance and simplicity, I don't think I'd own an airplane without one again. At that point, I was dumb and stubborn like most of you 

You do realize that almost nobody has an AoA indicator in their plane, right? I'm not sure how those "inept" instructors could have taught you to fly angle of attack and not airspeed without an installed AoA indicator. There have been millions of hours of inept flight instruction by thousands of instructors over the decades. Sadly, you, I and everyone else on this board has fallen victim to this shoddy, shameful disgrace of American general aviation... no, not just American, but rather a worldwide betrayal of general aviation. 

[201er]

Just now, DaV8or said:

You do realize that almost nobody has an AoA indicator in their plane, right? I'm not sure how those "inept" instructors could have taught you to fly angle of attack and not airspeed without an installed AoA indicator. There have been millions of hours of inept flight instruction by thousands of instructors over the decades. Sadly, you, I and everyone else on this board has fallen victim to this shoddy, shameful disgrace of American general aviation... no, not just American, but rather a worldwide betrayal of general aviation. 

How many times do I have to say that you *can* fly by AOA without an AOA indicator if properly taught. Yes it is harder and most likely you won't be spot on. But it will be safer than maintaining the same airspeed all the time until in one circumstance it isn't enough?

Flying by airspeed - flying the same airspeed per flight profile (Vx, Vy, climb, approach) regardless of weight, bank, load, or density altitude. Angle of attack varies by conditon. 

Flying by angle of attack - flying the same angle of attack per flight profile regardless of weight, bank, load, density altitude, or airspeed. Airspeed varies by condition.

[MyNameIsNobody]

He doubles down, he triples down, he quadruples down.  A man with a bird on a mission trying to educate the "ignorant" masses to the brilliant tool.  When will the fun ever end?  You try fat checking him out, you try...everything, but the parrot man is ever vigilant.

-I just want to save the "old" pilots from killing themselves.  If it takes demonstrating steep turns from base to final to do it...I am your guy...

See you on my next thread where I will call all you old school guys with hundreds...ney thousands of hours washed up has-ben's.

ps-buy AOA company stock...my tactics are guaranteed to drive up value.

smiley face 'cause calling you idiots and then putting one of these is A.O.K., I mean AOA...

Edited September 17, 2016 by MyNameIsNobody

[MyNameIsNobody]

14 minutes ago, 201er said:

How many times do I have to say that you *can* fly by AOA without an AOA indicator if properly taught. Yes it is harder and most likely you won't be spot on. But it will be safer than maintaining the same airspeed all the time until in one circumstance it isn't enough?

Flying by airspeed - flying the same airspeed per flight profile (Vx, Vy, climb, approach) regardless of weight, bank, load, or density altitude. Angle of attack varies by conditon. 

Flying by angle of attack - flying the same angle of attack per flight profile regardless of weight, bank, load, density altitude, or airspeed. Airspeed varies by condition.

I don't know...You tell me.

[Marauder]

Obviously Mike needs other visual stimulation. How about a fat bird?

Or something else?

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