Check Gear!

[bonal]

6 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Based on 20 years flying and 12 of them  teaching in Colorado, I guess I'll disagree with you on that. Those closer in descents were a reason for me to start slowing and putting the gear down earlier to take advantage of the increased drag.

Fair enough and I certainly don't have your amount of experience. But I really don't feel like dragging my gear at 120 mph for a long long descent. A lot of the small fields we fly to are surrounded by mountains and I like to have as much altitude for as long as possible when flying over dangerous terrain I'm sure you would agree with that. I also like to have the destination airport within glide before I throw all that energy away. This will require me to drop power to the preset gear warning which I then silence by adding back a bit of power. this is a pre determined descent plan I would respectfully say it is well planned.  Just to be clear I don't go from cruise power to 12 inches MP in one big pull, it's a gradual process an inch or Two as needed to maintain a stable descent.

I kind of think having an airplane that is challenging to slow down makes it sort of an unplanned safety feature as long as one thinks that the challenge is to achieve "gear" speed as your objective when descending while slowing down.

[DanM20C]

On 12/14/2018 at 5:26 PM, Junkman said:

Fixed gear or retract. I'm firmly in the camp of SOPs that you use every flight in every airplane.

I soloed on my 16th birthday in a 150. That flight school had gear switches with lights in every airplane.  From the start I moved the gear switch up after take off and put it down on downwind and varified 3 green, 3 times, for each landing.  Downwind, base, and final.  The law of primacy is strong! That has been my SOP starting when I was just 15, 25 years ago. 

Like Rick said, Nothing is a guarantee. But if we follow a SOP that has built in gear redundancy we won’t land gear up.  The trick is to never stray from our SOP.  Sometimes that is easier said than done. 

I like the “short final, good gear” call out. It seems like many gear ups happen at the end of a visual straight in approach. Something that isn’t most people’s SOP.  A Short final call out should help in that situation.

Cheers,

Dan

Edited December 16, 2018 by DanM20C

[0TreeLemur]

On 12/14/2018 at 7:02 PM, Dream to fly said:

How do you slow down if you don't put your wheels down? If I don't have gear down I know it. The plane is moving way to fast for flaps.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk
 

Any aircraft slows if you pull power and hold the nose up.  Imagine getting in a high drag configuration with power just above the MP-triggered alert with the gear up.  You could then put the flaps down and forget all about the gear...   It happens.  Knock on wood.

When I first started flying the M20 a little over a year ago I was shocked at how hard it was to slow down.  No problem now.    You can't slow it down in much of a descent.   Slowing involves level flight or climbing for a bit with the power out.

[midlifeflyer]

5 hours ago, DanM20C said:

I soloed on my 16th birthday in a 150. That flight school had gear switches with lights in every airplane.  From the start I moved the gear switch up after take off and put it down on downwind and varified 3 green, 3 times, for each landing.  Downwind, base, and final.  The law of primacy is strong! That has been my SOP starting when I was just 15, 25 years ago. 

I remember when Sporty's was selling those stick-on gear handles in their catalog . I always thought the "law of primacy" taught by them was, "if you forget it, don't worry. Nothing bad happens."

Edited December 16, 2018 by midlifeflyer

[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, bonal said:

Fair enough and I certainly don't have your amount of experience. But I really don't feel like dragging my gear at 120 mph for a long long descent. A lot of the small fields we fly to are surrounded by mountains and I like to have as much altitude for as long as possible when flying over dangerous terrain I'm sure you would agree with that. I also like to have the destination airport within glide before I throw all that energy away. This will require me to drop power to the preset gear warning which I then silence by adding back a bit of power. this is a pre determined descent plan I would respectfully say it is well planned.  Just to be clear I don't go from cruise power to 12 inches MP in one big pull, it's a gradual process an inch or Two as needed to maintain a stable descent.

I kind of think having an airplane that is challenging to slow down makes it sort of an unplanned safety feature as long as one thinks that the challenge is to achieve "gear" speed as your objective when descending while slowing down.

I suspect in reality, there isn't much difference in our techniques. All I really said is we shouldn't hear the gear warning, so my pre-gear extension power reductions would be to a point above where the warning would sound. 

[Steve_B]

I"m pretty new to my complex rating and I switch back and forth between an Arrow and my buddy's 150.  I'm so paranoid that I'm going to forget the gear.  I was taught, like many here, to do at least 3 GUMPS in the pattern (mid field DW, LB, Final).  I was also taught that the gear should be down by the time you enter the pattern.

There is one final "three green, no red" as I cross the threshold.  I do the same in the 150 with a "gear down & bolted".  The Arrow I fly can be a challenge to slow down fast as the gear warning horn is not set correctly (IMO)  It goes off around the 20"-21"MP setting vs something more reasonable like 17". Other than the gear warning check on initial decent, MP is increased anytime it sounds so I don't get used to hearing it.

Like I said, I'm fairly new to my complex rating, but I don't know why you wouldn't be slowed to gear speed by the time you enter the pattern.  If your that fast going into the pattern and don't have the gear down by then (or at least before you are abeam the numbers), I would expect you would be working to get it slowed down the rest of the way around and opening up yourself to other problems.

-Steve

[DanM20C]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I remember when Sporty's was selling those stick-on gear handles in their catalog . I always thought the "law of primacy" taught by them was, "if you forget it, don't worry. Nothing bad happens."

I never thought about it that way, good point.

Luckly my primary instructor was a stickler. He made sure something bad happened. He was known to not continue a lesson if the student missed the gear. 

Cheers,

Dan

[mike_elliott]

On 12/14/2018 at 6:26 PM, Junkman said:

I'll offer, "Short Final, Good Gear" on the last crosscheck of the PAPI/VASI or the threshold disappearing under the nose.

Repeat that about 1000 times to get it ingrained into your brain, and then use it every time you land. Fixed gear or retract. I'm firmly in the camp of SOPs that you use every flight in every airplane. Its worked for me for a lot of years, and caught an oversight on one recent occasion that I can recall. Not a guarantee, but it will create a situation that doesn't feel right if you miss the check. I've gone around for less than that. I'm hoping that it continues to work for me for a lot more years.

Cheers,
Rick

get one of these. It will help those that are distracted where a buzz would be ignored.

[DanM20C]

19 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

get one of these. It will help those that are distracted where a buzz would be ignored.

Betty was my copilot in my last Mooney.  She always got your attention. 

For a slightly less annoying (annoying is good in this case) and cheaper version you could go with the EI AV-17.  

Cheers,

Dan

[steingar]

I think if I had a wavy ball like the one in the Mite Id either go into an epileptic seizure or be hypnotized and fall under the airplane's hypnotic control.  Bleech!

[bradp]

The times when I’m most nervous about gearing up is when things aren’t normal.  Example practicing power off 180-s.  Not my normal landing SOP.  Hand on the gear and verbally setting out loud gear is up must put down when field made while that gear horn is blaring in the background is nerve racking enough. @midlifeflyer also brings up another good teaching point. Straight in approach but not flying down an ILS when do you put your gear down? 

[Hank]

22 hours ago, bradp said:

The times when I’m most nervous about gearing up is when things aren’t normal.  . . . Straight in approach but not flying down an ILS when do you put your gear down? 

Yes, unusual situations are when things bite. Like when Tower flew me 14nm past the runway, still at 7500msl and refusing my requests to descend, before turning inbound and clearing me to land #3. But I recovered without incident or reminder. 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Hank

[midlifeflyer]

57 minutes ago, bradp said:

The times when I’m most nervous about gearing up is when things aren’t normal.  Example practicing power off 180-s.  Not my normal landing SOP.  Hand on the gear and verbally setting out loud gear is up must put down when field made while that gear horn is blaring in the background is nerve racking enough. @midlifeflyer also brings up another good teaching point. Straight in approach but not flying down an ILS when do you put your gear down? 

In my case, my "normal" visual gear down point isn't dependent on the direction I approach the airport. 

You make a good point about 180s. Best I can offer is the Machado adage about "the next two" being the two most important things in aviation. Other than your aim point, there's almost literally nothing to think about other than putting the gear down. If you buy into my habit hypothesis, you'll be thinking about it all the way down. Seen it in me and others. No guarantees of course.

 

 

[0TreeLemur]

On 12/14/2018 at 9:58 PM, gsxrpilot said:

I'm always expecting Sam Elliott to let me know the gear is good for landing, as I'm turning Final and slowing to the final approach speed.  Passengers always get a kick out of it, and often believe me when I tell them it's Sam.

Lemme get this straight Paul, @gsxrpilot, you have a box in your aircraft that tells you that your gear are good to go, and the voice coming from this box sounds like the voice of Sam Elliot??   If so, where do I get one?   I especially want it if the voice says:  "Gear Down,  Dude"

[m20kmooney]

On 12/14/2018 at 1:55 PM, MIm20c said:

Not a popular belief but I’d like to see a 10-15k moving deductible option...

Also not a popular view but I’d like to see insurance underwriters refuse to insure a pilot who forgot the gear for a period of time. Say a year for example for the first offense and require additional training. Then if they do it again refuse them permanently. There’s no good excuse to forget the gear. The way it is now we all pay for those who don't take flying seriously.  

Edited December 21, 2018 by m20kmooney

[gsxrpilot]

35 minutes ago, Fred_2O said:

Lemme get this straight Paul, @gsxrpilot, you have a box in your aircraft that tells you that your gear are good to go, and the voice coming from this box sounds like the voice of Sam Elliot??   If so, where do I get one?   I especially want it if the voice says:  "Gear Down,  Dude"

Yep, that's about it.  It was in the plane when I bought it... I'm sure others have the same thing. I'll have to see exactly what it is.

[HRM]

I am guessing that all M20K's have electric gear. Frankly, I would proffer that the majority of gear ups happen on electric gear Mooneys.

I am wondering if the two gear ups under discussion happened under IFR flight plans.

Also, did the accidents happen with a CFI on board? I would also proffer that a disproportionate number of gear ups occur with two pilots in the cockpit (not picking on CFIs, ANY pilot).

After 'discovering' a few years ago that at 125 I can use the gear as a speed break, it's part of my slow down procedure on approach. Where things get screwy is with pattern work and another pilot on board--the flow is disrupted. I just had my FR in a Cessna (gottah love slow and simple) and did four landings. No issues with speed or gear.

Has the Mooney Safety Foundation analyzed gear up landings?

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, HRM said:

I am guessing that all M20K's have electric gear. Frankly, I would proffer that the majority of gear ups happen on electric gear Mooneys.

All Mooneys made after 1968 have electric gear and electric flaps. 

Why do you think that people who have manual landing gear are so much harder to distract than people who have electric landing gear???

[steingar]

Just now, Hank said:

All Mooneys made after 1968 have electric gear and electric flaps. 

Why do you think that people who have manual landing gear are so much harder to distract than people who have electric landing gear???

I wish it were so.  The analysis says otherwise, folks with J-bars gear up just as often as folks with switches.  

[GDGR]

43 minutes ago, steingar said:

I wish it were so.  The analysis says otherwise, folks with J-bars gear up just as often as folks with switches.  

I was wondering if there actually was any statistics on this. 
Heck, if the French guys can ignore the "WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH" In their ear for a good 30 seconds and not clue in, anyone can get distracted... Regardless if it's forgetting to swing a J-Bar, or flip a switch from up to down. 

[steingar]

47 minutes ago, GLJA said:

I was wondering if there actually was any statistics on this. 
Heck, if the French guys can ignore the "WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH" In their ear for a good 30 seconds and not clue in, anyone can get distracted... Regardless if it's forgetting to swing a J-Bar, or flip a switch from up to down. 

Ron Wattanja does accident analysis for the EAA.  I asked  him specifically about this issue and he said that the J-bar and electric gear airplanes have nearly identical rates of gear-up accidents.  He has the numbers to prove it too.  Surprised the heck out of me, but data is.

[HRM]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

All Mooneys made after 1968 have electric gear and electric flaps. 

Why do you think that people who have manual landing gear are so much harder to distract than people who have electric landing gear???

It's not so much the distraction as it is the mechanical aspect of the thing and the glaring visual of the J-bar position. That said, the data apparently shows no difference between manual and electric gear gear up frequency.

Of course, every pilot is different and I guess I am just a tactile sequencer. I also love the 'steam punky' aspect of my E. Levers, dials, gauges, lights, etc.

Then again, I fly it solely for my personal pleasure.

[EricJ]

49 minutes ago, HRM said:

It's not so much the distraction as it is the mechanical aspect of the thing and the glaring visual of the J-bar position. That said, the data apparently shows no difference between manual and electric gear gear up frequency.

Electric gear Mooneys have the "glaring visual" as well since the wheel-shaped handle is right in front of you on every electric gear airplane.   It's not like a lot of other airplanes where the gear handle is out of the way or nearly hidden somewhere, it's smack in front of you either at or near the top of the panel.   This is a Good Thing and something I have always appreciated about these airplanes.

I have two audible callouts, the AV-17 and the 500-ft warning from the IFD, plus the horn, plus the gear handle in front of me, and I'm still paranoid about it.

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, steingar said:

Ron Wattanja does accident analysis for the EAA.  I asked  him specifically about this issue and he said that the J-bar and electric gear airplanes have nearly identical rates of gear-up accidents.  He has the numbers to prove it too.  Surprised the heck out of me, but data is.

and Don Maxwell told me (unscientific study) that he has repaired more J bar gear ups than electric. Initially, I shrugged this off thinking  there were more J bar planes existing than electric, but I believe I am wrong on this account also. What is telling is it doesn't matter. If you are not ingrained to check your gear position on short final EVERY time, you may become a member of the "those that have" club. Checklists are your friend if you remember to use them, and I am not referring to the 16 page version some like to fumble with in the cockpit. Gear up's are not more preventable with a J bar, but they are with proper pilot diligence

[steingar]

I've said this before but I feel it bears a bit of repetition.  VFR, I configure the airplane to land well before I ever hit the landing pattern.  IFR, well I dunno just yet, but I'm going to develop some sort of pattern that brings gear and flaps down before things get too busy.