'75 F - Heavy Elevator?

[Zak]

Howdy all! I'm pretty new to the Mooney world. I recently bought into a '75 M20F. I have noticed that this plane is pretty heavy on the elevator. I notice it a lot during final approach and landing. I have to trim it nose up quite a bit on final to try to ease the required control pressure but I still find myself having to use both hands on the yoke to get 'er on the ground. The CFI I have been flying with has Mooney time, he also thinks it seems pretty heavy. Most other planes I have flown I could fly with two fingers and my thumb.... Except for a Bonanza B36 its heavy like this Mooney but it is a lot more plane. Is this "heavy" elevator normal???

[chrixxer]

Howdy all! I'm pretty new to the Mooney world. I recently bought into a '75 M20F. I have noticed that this plane is pretty heavy on the elevator. I notice it a lot during final approach and landing. I have to trim it nose up quite a bit on final to try to ease the required control pressure but I still find myself having to use both hands on the yoke to get 'er on the ground. The CFI I have been flying with has Mooney time, he also thinks it seems pretty heavy. Most other planes I have flown I could fly with two fingers and my thumb.... Except for a Bonanza B36 its heavy like this Mooney but it is a lot more plane. Is this "heavy" elevator normal???

A large amount of nose up trim is normal. Mine's almost all the way nose up to get it to hands-free 80 mph on final, as have been the other Fs I've flown.

But the controls should not feel heavy. Check the elevator bungies, I'm told they're supposed to be removed, inspected, and repacked with fresh grease every annual, but the ones in my '69 F hadn't been touched in years despite at least one recent annual at an MSC.



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[luv737s]

I keep 60 LBS of Ballast in back because my C is past forward CG limit when I am SOLO.  All the new toys up front push the CG forward on many Mooney's.  Recheck your W&B.

[Marauder]

Howdy all! I'm pretty new to the Mooney world. I recently bought into a '75 M20F. I have noticed that this plane is pretty heavy on the elevator. I notice it a lot during final approach and landing. I have to trim it nose up quite a bit on final to try to ease the required control pressure but I still find myself having to use both hands on the yoke to get 'er on the ground. The CFI I have been flying with has Mooney time, he also thinks it seems pretty heavy. Most other planes I have flown I could fly with two fingers and my thumb.... Except for a Bonanza B36 its heavy like this Mooney but it is a lot more plane. Is this "heavy" elevator normal???

I’ve owned my 75 F for 28 years. You will need a lot of nose up trim and even more when you slow down to the 80 MPH over the numbers. Try trimming it on final so that you are almost beginning to push on the yoke. It will make the transition to the landing flare a bit easier.


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[carusoam]

Welcome aboard Zak!

Congratulations... You just defined one of the reasons people get Transition training using a Mooney specific CFII!

you have all the ratings... you are looking for the specific experience not covered by ratings...

 

Each movement of the flaps, increases camber and lift... as a by-product of the simple mechanics... the center of lift creeps backwards on the wing... making the nose appear pretty heavy... or the elevator appear less effective...

The engineers at Mooney recognized this... and equipped the plane with a trim system that fully accounts for the changes... without going too far.  Each time the flaps move, the trim needs to move the same amount...  in electric trim systems, pilots move the flaps and trim at the same time... for the same amount of time... there are That well integrated...

Keep in mind, the Mooney design doesn’t allow the trim to cause a stall... but one not set up properly could... 

Or getting outside the WnB envelope has obvious challenges...

So test these things out at altitude, not at TPA...

Recognize the differences being solo to being fully loaded, as the balance and cg shift back towards the limits...

Fun things to be aware of... the earlier the better...

A good portion of TT is one on one discussions of how this stuff works.  Don’t be afraid to pay for a decent discussion before having a less effective discussion flying a plane...

Very important, the other side of this same coin...  Did you discuss Go-Arounds yet?

If you think your elevator is heavy now? Tell us what happens when the power gets put in with flaps down, trimmed for landing...?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[eman1200]

I don’t notice that overly heavy elevator. ‘75 F as well.

[Yetti]

Your trim indicator may be out of wack.   Try have flaps.  Yes on full nose up trim with full flaps.   In proper trim should fly with 2 fingers.   Have you switched the wing leveler  off and flown it?  If you are dragging it in on the prop it can be a bear.

[GDGR]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

I’ve owned my 75 F for 28 years. You will need a lot of nose up trim and even more when you slow down to the 80 MPH over the numbers. Try trimming it on final so that you are almost beginning to push on the yoke. It will make the transition to the landing flare a bit easier.


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This will be on my list of things to try next flight.... 74F here, and compared to a C172, I found it elevator heavy as well. But, would still rather fly elevator heavy than a 3-toed sloth of a Cessna

[Shadrach]

I land my 67F close to or at max nose up trim depending on load.  Light on fuel with the fuel ont seats occupied and I’ll run right into the trim stop. It’s tg nature of the this airframe.  You’ll forget about after 30 landings or so. Alternatively, secure a tool box in the baggage compartment.

[Yetti]

Soon you will forget to reset the trim to take off position.  when you throttle up, the nose will pitch up and you will need to catch it with a big push down on the yoke.    You will only forget once or twice.   Have your transition instructor take you up high. 

 

Do full power take off configuration at take off angle up about 5000 AGL and have the instructor push the throttle in like a simulated loss of power on takeoff.    You will need to push the nose over quickly.  Do this several times so it is a natural response.

[MBDiagMan]

I went from my beloved C with super light control pressures first to a friends F and then my own.  Both of them are so heavy on the elevator I feel like I’m trying to get a B17 to rotate. Apparently it’s the nature of the beast.

Don Maxwell delivered my F and flew a couple times around the patch.  He impressed on me the need to begin trimming on downwind and keep trimming pretty much all the way almost to touchdown.  It is taking a while to master it, but it was good advice.  Just wear that trim wheel out.

[Hank]

Trim is your friend! Every power adjustment is a trim adjustment. Every elevator adjustment is a trim adjustment. 

In my C, I generally land with Takeoff flaps unless I'm high on final or the winds are close to calm, then I lower more flaps. Change flaps, change trim . . .

In an F, my experience is limited to about 10-12 hours but landings are much better with Landing flaps. I like to have Takeoff flaps by pattern entry, and drop gear abeam my intended point of landing. Then reduce power and play with trim. Turn base, maintain descent, turn final and play with throttle, elevator and trim to stay on glideslope. In the F, this is where I put in the rest of the flaps and spin the trim some more. When I know the field is made, throttle to idle, watch airspeed, come over the numbers and land.

Lots of trim. Every time you change something, trim the plane to fly hands off. I descend from altitude to the pattern at 500 fpm, with cruise power, and every now and then nudge the throttle back, mixture forward and adjust the trim to hold 500 fpm "hands off the yoke." Then when I need to do something with the elevator, it's not a huge change. Except a go around--that's a huge change in power, which requires a huge push forward and alternating flaps up some, trim down some, flaps up some, trim down some, until climbing hands off again. Somewhere in there add in "positive rate, gear up," the climb is much better that way!    Been there, forgot that . . . .

[Zak]

Went flying today... What I found...

The blocks that hold the yoke in the panel were a little sticky.  

I found that what I thought was plenty of trim on final was not enough. I was concerned about putting in too much trim and then having to go around and having too much nose up. 

Today I got some altitude and practiced a few simulated approaches with plenty more trim and then added full power. Obviously there was a good nose up but not near what I had expected for the amount of trim I "thought" I had. Easy to hold it down and run the trim back down for the go-around.

My landings now.... Easy, smooth, and greasy! That's all it need. I have always flown with trim this aircraft is just a bit different regarding trim than others I have flown. While on the ground during pre-flight I did notice that the last two inches or so pulling the yoke back all the way are a bit "heavier" I am guessing that it is just the change of geometry of the controls and leverage. I think now using more trim I am not have to control the plane in the flare in this "heavier" last little bit of elevator. 

I just needed more trim!

Thanks all!!!!

[Shadrach]

31 minutes ago, zak said:

While on the ground during pre-flight I did notice that the last two inches or so pulling the yoke back all the way are a bit "heavier" I am guessing that it is just the change of geometry of the controls and leverage. I think now using more trim I am not have to control the plane in the flare in this "heavier" last little bit of elevator. 

I just needed more trim!

Thanks all!!!!

Yes the last few inches of up elevator are more difficult because the yoke is rotating upwards as well as back in a very short distance. The only time you might need that much up elevator during the flare to a short field landing.

[skydvrboy]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Yes the last few inches of up elevator are more difficult because the yoke is rotating upwards as well as back in a very short distance. The only time you might need that much up elevator during the flare to a short field landing.

Or while taxiing through the mud at Oshkosh.

[Yetti]

Some times on short short final, I will grab two more handfuls of trim