Lycoming io-360 Engine odyssey

[aidanf]

>I thought I would share pictures and insight on my engine rebuild to help pilots in a similar situation.
So as the summer went on I was having issues when starting up my engine from cold – a stumble after start (lycoming io-360) on an engine that had 1020 hours SMOH.
The engine ran fine after the initial stumble and I had a couple of long flights ( 2- 4 hours) during the last 3 months and not a hint of an issue apart from the initial stumble which lasted perhaps 2-3 seconds(JPI 830 installed)
So for the annual I asked the engineer to check the valve clearances as the diagnosis was sticky valves, here is where our odyssey starts.
When the valves were checked the wobble test failed and on close measurement all of the valve guides were out of spec – really out of spec, and down the rabbit hole we go.
We pulled the cylinders and the hone was worn on some of the cylinders – the cam was damaged and one of the lifters was starting to spall, at each step the mechanic provided pictures and we discussed before proceeding further.
This is the point we all have to face at some point in our aviation hobby and the 2 ingredients of success are – cash and a very good relationship with your mechanic.
We decided to split the case and assess what we would do – 
New Continental Prime NiCr cylinders
New CAM
New lifters *with the DLC coating
New governor
All new bearings and bolts – 

 

Why not a total overhaul - well I am not made of money and sending it off to lycoming for an exchange is a lot more expensive, sending it off to a shop for an overhaul also does not fill me with happiness and joy, I want quality parts installed by someone I know and trust who also feels a responsibility for keeping me and mine safe at 10,000 feet - also those NiCr cylinders seem to be to be a gigantic leap forward in technology than trying to refurb 30 year old cylinders. - I work in a science business with a lot of work in materials science - a field which has made gigantic leaps forward in the last 15 years.

 

[Yetti]

It would be interesting to know what contaminant got up there beside the bearings.

[larryb]

Did you find metal in the oil filter? Did you do oil analysis? I am just curious if there were other clues.

[N231BN]

It would be interesting to know what contaminant got up there beside the bearings.

Most likely corrosion.

[Yetti]

1 minute ago, N231BN said:

7 hours ago, Yetti said:

It would be interesting to know what contaminant got up there beside the bearings.

Most likely corrosion.

Contaminant causes the corrosion.

[N231BN]

Contaminant causes the corrosion.

Ok, byproducts(acids) from combustion. This engine probably sat for a while at some point in it's lifetime.

[Yetti]

I was wondering if it had some metal contamination at some point.

[N231BN]

I was wondering if it had some metal contamination at some point.

There doesn't have to be metal contamination to get something started but I guess some aluminum flakes could possibly speed things up.

[75_M20F]

_{All that rust in there did it in. I read somewhere that "an engine that sits for more then 90 days will not make TBO" (unless you are in a dry climate or the engine is pickled maybe)}

_{Airplanes need to fly weekly, oil changed every 25 hours or 4 months, whatever comes first.....}

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by 75_M20F

[gsxrpilot]

38 minutes ago, 75_M20F said:

_{All that rust in there did it in. I read somewhere that "an engine that sits for more then 90 days will not make TBO" (unless you are in a dry climate or the engine is pickled maybe)}

_{Airplanes need to fly weekly, oil changed every 25 hours or 4 months, whatever comes first.....}

 

Oil change every 25 hours?  You've got to be kidding.

[Hank]

27 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Oil change every 25 hours?  You've got to be kidding.

Maybe he meant planes without oil filters, inky the screens . . . . 

[carusoam]

Great Pics, Aidan!

Fantastic written English as well. you are in the Czech Republic, but not from there?

Could be one of the NJ Mooney Pilots from the East...  

Inviting @M20Doc to have a look at the IO360 pics, and discussion of engine stumble upon start-up, worn valve guides, and failed wobble test...

Best regards,

-a-

[gsxrpilot]

28 minutes ago, Hank said:

Maybe he meant planes without oil filters, inky the screens . . . . 

True, but if you really want to take care of an engine, wouldn't a proper spin on oil filter conversion be near the top of the list?

[Hank]

39 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

True, but if you really want to take care of an engine, wouldn't a proper spin on oil filter conversion be near the top of the list?

Everybody has their own list, and some people would rather buy a lot of oil instead of parts, labor and STC to add a filter / remote filter to an engine without one? Personally, I can't imagine an engine without an oil filter, even my weedeater has one!

[N201MKTurbo]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

Everybody has their own list, and some people would rather buy a lot of oil instead of parts, labor and STC to add a filter / remote filter to an engine without one? Personally, I can't imagine an engine without an oil filter, even my weedeater has one!

Wow, you have a fancy weedeater….

[Steve W]

My weedeater has an oil screen, well it has a fuel screen, and since the oil is in the fuel it has an oil screen...

But my IO-360 also looks like that. It had a cam failure a few hundred hours before I bought it, which was replaced, and no problems on oil analysis or filter cuts since I bought it, but as part of a prop strike inspection they found similar issues, so I'm upgrading to a full overhaul. So my one regret on my PPI was not paying to have a cylinder pulled which would have immediately found my pistons looking like this:

 

 

 

[N201MKTurbo]

6 hours ago, Steve W said:

My weedeater has an oil screen, well it has a fuel screen, and since the oil is in the fuel it has an oil screen...

But my IO-360 also looks like that. It had a cam failure a few hundred hours before I bought it, which was replaced, and no problems on oil analysis or filter cuts since I bought it, but as part of a prop strike inspection they found similar issues, so I'm upgrading to a full overhaul. So my one regret on my PPI was not paying to have a cylinder pulled which would have immediately found my pistons looking like this:

 

 

 

I’ve seen a lot worse.

[larryb]

I think that piston looks pretty good.

[Ragsf15e]

Ok, before reading this, I thought Lycoming was the only place to get new angle valve cylinders for IO 360s... come to find out “Continental Prime” cylinders are also available?  Ok, so now there’s a little competition for new cylinders... but I can’t find prices for any of these Continental cylinders.  These new ones are NiCh and supposedly superior??

1. Is anyone using them?

2.  How much are they?

mostly just curious as Im really hoping not to need them for a long time!

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Ok, before reading this, I thought Lycoming was the only place to get new angle valve cylinders for IO 360s... come to find out “Continental Prime” cylinders are also available?  Ok, so now there’s a little competition for new cylinders... but I can’t find prices for any of these Continental cylinders.  These new ones are NiCh and supposedly superior??

1. Is anyone using them?

2.  How much are they?

mostly just curious as Im really hoping not to need them for a long time!

The Continental website show all of the parts for the line of Lycoming engines they build parts for.

http://www.continentalmotors.aero/support/illustrated-parts-catalog.aspx

Clarence

[Ragsf15e]

Yep, tisn13-oca would be the cylinders for my A1A... no prices to be found anywhere...

[MB65E]

I wouldn’t put a Continental part of anything on my Lycoming. Lol!

-Matt

[Steve W]

4 hours ago, larryb said:

I think that piston looks pretty good.

Yea, but seeing that on a pulled cylinder would have been a sign there could have been other problems hiding, like the oil pump housing and gear and at least one other gear with problems, among other things.

[aidanf]

8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yep, tisn13-oca would be the cylinders for my A1A... no prices to be found anywhere...

I got them from airpower for 1800 dollars each - just received them, they look damm nice,  I will follow up with my mechanic and let everybody know after the install how it went

[aidanf]

On 11/13/2018 at 4:32 AM, carusoam said:

Great Pics, Aidan!

Fantastic written English as well. you are in the Czech Republic, but not from there?

Could be one of the NJ Mooney Pilots from the East...  

Inviting @M20Doc to have a look at the IO360 pics, and discussion of engine stumble upon start-up, worn valve guides, and failed wobble test...

Best regards,

-a-

Thanks for the compliment - but as you identified I am not Czech (Irish in fact), I will be following up with more pictures on the trip - got some today of the parts after they came out of the nickel plating - I imagine there is a website somewhere on the internet for engine porn - but I really am enjoying this process.

Looking forward to getting some new cylinders – and more peace of mind, I think on buying a plane with an engine that is not new or nearly new there is always doubt which weighs on you when you are flying, now that everything will be ship shape and new I can enjoy flying even more.

Edited November 14, 2018 by aidanf