Explain the "typical" Autopilots found in a Vintage M20

[LANCECASPER]

  On 11/6/2018 at 8:43 PM, Bravoman said:

 If I am reading everything correctly that the Bendix King rep said on the Beech forum , looks like the Aerocruz will be available for the Bravo  and other long  bodies sometime mid to late next year. 

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That's probably about right since he said the M20J, K & L will be available first quarter and then the others about three months after that. However I am also very well aware of recent Bendix King timetables. Thankfully the KFC150 on my M20M flies like it's on rails but I know that's not forever.

[Bravoman]

  On 11/6/2018 at 8:47 PM, LANCECASPER said:

That's probably about right since he said the M20J, K & L will be available first quarter and then the others about three months after that. However I am also very well aware of recent Bendix King timetables. Thankfully the KFC150 on my M20M flies like it's on rails but I know that's not forever.

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Mine too, but it’s nice to know that that is available the next time it breaks.  If it was available earlier this year I probably would’ve sprung for it before spending north of $3000 getting my 150 fixed. 

[Marauder]

  On 11/6/2018 at 8:47 PM, LANCECASPER said:

That's probably about right since he said the M20J, K & L will be available first quarter and then the others about three months after that. However I am also very well aware of recent Bendix King timetables. Thankfully the KFC150 on my M20M flies like it's on rails but I know that's not forever.

Don’t worry, your KI-300 is coming. Right after they deliver Peter Garmin’s sometime next decade.


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[LANCECASPER]

  On 11/6/2018 at 8:52 PM, Marauder said:

 

Don’t worry, your KI-300 is coming. Right after they deliver Peter Garmin’s sometime next decade.


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Believe it or not the KI-300 is available right now for delivery. http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ki300

However the KA-310 adaptor boix for it is not ready quite yet.

[Marauder]

  On 11/6/2018 at 8:57 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Believe it or not the KI-300 is available right now for delivery. http://sarasotaavionics.com/avionics/ki300
However the KA-310 adaptor boix for it is not ready quite yet.

No,no! Heavens forbid! The next thing you will be telling me is that the earth is round.


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[LANCECASPER]

  On 11/6/2018 at 8:59 PM, Marauder said:

 

No,no! Heavens forbid! The next thing you will be telling me is that the earth is round.


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Actually it's an oblate sphere, but since Peter hasn't been on Mooneyspace lately I can only imagine that he is taking this time with his family to celebrate the certification of the KI-300.

[Niko182]

  On 11/5/2018 at 10:54 PM, gsxrpilot said:

As long as you're still shopping... I wouldn't spend money on anything with a Brittain. The difference in price between an E with a wing leveler and one with an Stec30/altitude will be probably only $3K or $4K and might not even be that much. An E with an Stec gives you a very capable autopilot today, and the ability to upgrade to the Stec 3100 for a very reasonable price and then have a modern state of the art autopilot. I know Mooneys have done just fine for many years with the wing leveler and associated upgrades... but it doesn't mean I have to participate since there are other, better options out there. 

There are lots of autopilot options on the horizon... we just don't know how far out that horizon is.

If looking at a J, the KFC150 is a really nice autopilot. But while it integrates with my Aspen for lateral guidance and GPSS, it can't get vertical speed or altitude pre-select from the Aspen. For that reason, I'd probably prefer an Stec or Century autopilot if I was buying a plane today.

Just my $0.02

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This was what I was going to bring up. The majority of Stec autopilots have Electric Trim installed so the upgrade path for the 3100 is about 10.5 amu, but there's no need for replacing Servos since they use the existing ones and add 1 year warranty on the servos and 2 years on the box. Great plan in my opinion.

  On 11/6/2018 at 8:47 PM, LANCECASPER said:

That's probably about right since he said the M20J, K & L will be available first quarter and then the others about three months after that. However I am also very well aware of recent Bendix King timetables. Thankfully the KFC150 on my M20M flies like it's on rails but I know that's not forever.

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The Aerocruz seems like a nice autopilot, but in this situation, I don't know if its a great Idea reusing the servos. From looking at other peoples experience with Bendix kind, servo overhauls have been extremely expensive with the king units. I like the idea of using the Stec servos, because don't fix it if it ain't broke, but Stec servos seem to be a lot more reliable than the Bendix king ones. The majority of the time I see like 3 to 5 thousand dollars just to repair a Bendix king servo, and at that price you're getting close to the retail price of the GFC500 alone,  however I understand that a G5 is still needed. I saw on Beechtalk, that if warranty would be included on the servos, some of the beech owners would have bought the Aerocruz simply for the warranty, as they've spent so much overhauling their servos. Also take a look how Stec has done with their customer service and compare it to Bendix kings. Stec as a company is miles ahead in my opinion, and I wouldn't consider an Aerocruz, even if I had a KFC150, 200, or 250 considering the way BK as a company has been handled in the last couple of years.

[carusoam]

Mr. T,

When you have no IR...,  no excess cash, and are buying a Mooney....

You get what you get, and don’t get upset...

You can fly for a decade with a completely inop AP.

 

When you start flying precision, as required by the IR... the continuous instrument scan, and control adjustments can be cognitively tiring after an hour of flight...napping after the flight?

If you intend to be VFR only, a wing leveler is good.

If you intend to train to the ATP level, go all in to get the tools that make sense for where you are going...

APs are holey cow expensive... as are WAAS gps...

For best price... Buy a plane with them installed already...

Waiting for anything BK related has been written about decades ago by some guy named Camus... in his famous short aviation story... ‘Waiting for b. Kodot’   A pointed follow-up to the series... Waiting for Godot.

Best regards,

-a-

[Mr. T]

  On 11/6/2018 at 9:19 PM, carusoam said:

Mr. T,

When you have no IR...,  no excess cash, and are buying a Mooney....

You get what you get, and don’t get upset...

You can fly for a decade with a completely inop AP.

 

When you start flying precision, as required by the IR... the continuous instrument scan, and control adjustments can be cognitively tiring after an hour of flight...napping after the flight?

If you intend to be VFR only, a wing leveler is good.

If you intend to train to the ATP level, go all in to get the tools that make sense for where you are going...

APs are holey cow expensive... as are WAAS gps...

For best price... Buy a plane with them installed already...

Best regards, 

-a-

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All good points.

 

The mission for my partner and me is VFR and light IFR (for now, anyway) cross country flights. I'm sure I could get by without Otto's help but I'm also sure I don't want to.

Wish there was some more clarity around all these "real soon now" options - though I'm a few months out on my final purchase decision anyway so maybe the crystal ball will be less cloudy by then..

[Niko182]

  On 11/6/2018 at 9:38 PM, Mr. T said:

All good points.

 

The mission for my partner and me is VFR and light IFR (for now, anyway) cross country flights. I'm sure I could get by without Otto's help but I'm also sure I don't want to.

Wish there was some more clarity around all these "real soon now" options - though I'm a few months out on my final purchase decision anyway so maybe the crystal ball will be less cloudy by then..

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Few months should give you time to do your research on avionics.

for PFD, you have
- G500
- G500 TXI
- Aspen 1000
- G5
- basic 6 pack

For GPS and Nav/ Comms you have
GTN 750
GTN650
GNS530
GNS480
GNS430
IFD550
IFD540
IFD440
BK KLN series
Basic Nav coms

Autopilots consist of
Stec 20
Stec 30
Stec 50
Stec 55
Stec 55x
Stec 60
Stec 3100
Garmin GFC 500
BK KFC150
KFC200
KFC250
wing levelers

Engine Monitors consist of
JPI 700
JPI 730
JPI 800
JPI 830
JPI 900
JPI 930
EI 30 series
EI 50 series

Its alot to take in but do your research on what you want. mistaking these can cost literally 10s of thousands dollars to you, if you buy a plane that doesn't  include something you want. Some autopilots are basic. just leveling wings, some do alt hold, and some to full approaches and more. Some of those engine monitors are primary. some are secondary. Some of the GPS' are waas. some arent. I know you were specifically asking about autopilots, but know what you're buying. all these devices have different capabilities and if you get something without a capability you want, itll be an expensive mistake.

[EricJ]

  On 11/6/2018 at 4:35 PM, Cyril Gibb said:

I have a Century 2000, so if the Century III operates differently ignore the following.

The GS flag/light should become active when intercepting the localizer.  Whether I'm in ALT or ATT(attitude) mode, the autopilot captures and follows the glideslope when intercepting the glideslope without any button pushing.

Does your autopilot capture an ILS glideslope?  If it captures an ILS but not a GPS glideslope it could be using the incorrect pin from the WAAS GPS.  In the case of a GNS430W, the ILS glideslope pinout has to be moved to the pin that activates the GS for both ILS and GPS.

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The POH for the CIII sez you have to be in ALT hold and LOC tracking for twenty seconds AND below the GS in order for the GS track to happen, and it'll lock on interception of the GS from below.   Most of the GPS approaches around here are descending before the FAF or when the glide path starts on a GPS approach, but there is one I know of (Winslow) that I can test that allows ALT to be engaged and intercept below the glide path.   That's the one where I inadvertently disengaged ALT I think just as it was about to start tracking, so I'll go back up there on Mon and try again.

This is one of the reasons I long for a good digital AP...these old things were the shizzle in the day, but now they're pretty clunky.   I am glad I have it, as it does reduce workload a ton, but it would be nice to have something a bit more advanced.

[m20kmooney]

  On 11/6/2018 at 9:13 PM, Niko182 said:

This was what I was going to bring up. The majority of Stec autopilots have Electric Trim installed so the upgrade path for the 3100 is about 10.5 amu, but there's no need for replacing Servos since they use the existing ones and add 1 year warranty on the servos and 2 years on the box. Great plan in my opinion.

The Aerocruz seems like a nice autopilot, but in this situation, I don't know if its a great Idea reusing the servos. From looking at other peoples experience with Bendix kind, servo overhauls have been extremely expensive with the king units. I like the idea of using the Stec servos, because don't fix it if it ain't broke, but Stec servos seem to be a lot more reliable than the Bendix king ones. The majority of the time I see like 3 to 5 thousand dollars just to repair a Bendix king servo, and at that price you're getting close to the retail price of the GFC500 alone,  however I understand that a G5 is still needed. I saw on Beechtalk, that if warranty would be included on the servos, some of the beech owners would have bought the Aerocruz simply for the warranty, as they've spent so much overhauling their servos. Also take a look how Stec has done with their customer service and compare it to Bendix kings. Stec as a company is miles ahead in my opinion, and I wouldn't consider an Aerocruz, even if I had a KFC150, 200, or 250 considering the way BK as a company has been handled in the last couple of years.

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I’m not sure your opinion reflects reality. I had my King pitch servo repaired for the first time after 26 years in service by Autopilots Central a few months ago. The repair cost me $745.00. I also bought another one they had overhauled and ready to install to have as a spare. I paid $1450.00 for that with warranty.

So for $2200.00 I got two pitch servos.

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by m20kmooney

[carusoam]

  On 11/6/2018 at 9:38 PM, Mr. T said:

 

Wish there was some more clarity around all these "real soon now" options - 

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Search for...

Waiting for Godot... A. Camus

 

and Buy what is available today...

If you are a sales guy... it is called Swat.  Sell what is available...

 

If you get bogged down over the lesser details you may watch plane after plane get by... it will be a year before you will be flying...

Some people will take a year looking for that particular plane. And won’t settle until they find it...

Everyone’s priorities are different.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[carusoam]

@m20kmooney, got any pics for the pitch Servo?

I suspect mine is getting ready for the same service... a few mild oscillations in attitude...

Best regards,

-a-

[m20kmooney]

  On 11/6/2018 at 10:24 PM, carusoam said:

@m20kmooney, got any pics for the pitch Servo?

I suspect mine is getting ready for the same service... a few mild oscillations in attitude...

Best regards,

-a-

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I’m sorry I don’t have any photos. What pictures are you looking for? Mine would intermittently not hold altitude. They repaired it with brand new King parts.

Edited November 6, 2018 by m20kmooney

[carusoam]

  On 11/6/2018 at 10:26 PM, m20kmooney said:

I’m sorry I don’t have any photos. What pictures are you looking for? Mine would intermittently not hold altitude. They repaired it with brand new King parts.

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Looking to be able to point at the right one.  

To make sure I don’t get the trim servo swapped out instead.

Best regards,

-a-

[m20kmooney]

  On 11/6/2018 at 10:33 PM, carusoam said:

Looking to be able to point at the right one.  

To make sure I don’t get the trim servo swapped out instead.

Best regards,

-a-

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If it’s the pitch servo you are looking for it’s the one that has a bridle cable through a capstan on it and going back to the elevator. It’s located aft and away from the trim servo. You can’t miss it! You can see the cable aft and fore. The capstan is underneath it. 

Here are some drawings:

 

 

Edited November 6, 2018 by m20kmooney

[kortopates]

Here you go Anthony@Carusoam



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[Niko182]

  On 11/6/2018 at 10:16 PM, m20kmooney said:

I’m not sure your opinion reflects reality. I had my King pitch servo repaired for the first time after 26 years in service by Autopilots Central a few months ago. The repair cost me $745.00. I also bought another one they had overhauled and ready to install to have as a spare. I paid $1450.00 for that with warranty.

So for $2200.00 I got two pitch servos.

 

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Just take a quick search on google. the link provided to beechtalk on one of the previous post states that Bk was going to charge a guy 4k to repair the servo. I have seen other posts stating prices as high as 6k. Thats the reality I see, when people are showing their estimates on the forum. I fly with an STEC, so i cant talk about personal experience but I can talk about what I see. The KFC 150 in my parents old 231 had major issues for a couple years until the problem was finally solved. don't remember what it was, but I know they spent tons of money trying to figure out the problem and bk wasn't exactly reasonable.

[MIm20c]

  On 11/7/2018 at 1:58 AM, Niko182 said:

Just take a quick search on google. the link provided to beechtalk on one of the previous post states that Bk was going to charge a guy 4k to repair the servo. I have seen other posts stating prices as high as 6k. Thats the reality I see, when people are showing their estimates on the forum. I own an STEC, so i cant talk about personal experience but I can talk about what I see. The KFC 150 in my parents old 231 had major issues for a couple years until the problem was finally solved. don't remember what it was, but I know they spent tons of money trying to figure out the problem and bk wasn't exactly reasonable.

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2-3k is common for BK servo overhaul. Even the most modern one (225) a MS member reported 2k ish for an overhaul. Stec failures (more common than the company would like you to believe) are in the range of 1.5-2.5k for the servo Iran/repair. 

[Guest]

A client of mine just bought 2 factory overhauled servos for a 1999 182S.  Electric trim and pitch were just under $3,500.00.  Not exactly cheap, but they had them in stock and shipped immediately.

Clarence

[Mr. T]

Starting to feel like I should squawk 7500...

[carusoam]

Too early for squawking...

You have plenty of time...

There are only so many planes available...

Take good personal notes...

Make yourself a priority list...

Be ready... nothing is more disappointing that not being ready....

-a-

[Marauder]

  On 11/7/2018 at 4:08 AM, Mr. T said:

Starting to feel like I should squawk 7500...

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Probably better if squawked 7700 and declared the number of souls being lost on this thread.

[Bravoman]

  On 11/7/2018 at 2:04 AM, M20Doc said:

A client of mine just bought 2 factory overhauled servos for a 1999 182S.  Electric trim and pitch were just under $3,500.00.  Not exactly cheap, but they had them in stock and shipped immediately.

Clarence

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Bk or stec?