What did you pay and what did you sell it for?

[ChrisV]

First post, forgive me if this is already a thread.  I am looking to buy a 201 (first plane purchase).  I am financially extremely conservative and trying to determine the investment value.  My questions are:

What did you pay for your plane?

How much did you spend on upgrades?

How long did you have it?

How much did you sell it for?

Thanks in advance.

[M016576]

44 minutes ago, ChrisV said:

First post, forgive me if this is already a thread.  I am looking to buy a 201 (first plane purchase).  I am financially extremely conservative and trying to determine the investment value.  My questions are:

What did you pay for your plane?

How much did you spend on upgrades?

How long did you have it?

How much did you sell it for?

Thanks in advance.

Financially conservative and airplane don’t tend to go well in the same sentence...

mainly because of maintenance costs- not necessarily hull value vs upgrades.  One annual that requires a few bigger items, and all the best laid maintenance/ budget plans go right out the window... for example- I know of a few people on this board (myself included) that had unexpected overhauls at low times on the motors due to cams spalling.  Some would say that was due to not enough flight, or corrosion inside the motor, and say “that won’t happen to me.”  But from what I’ve been able to piece together- it’s more due to a tappet or cam manufacturing issue from the late 90’s to mid 2000’s.  I digress.

You would like numbers- here they are for my first J-

purchased- 79,000 (in 2009)

upgrades- ~35,000

sold- 105,000 (in 2013)

realize that upgrades number does not include the overhaul I had to do at 400hrs on the motor... or any of the annual expenses- of which one was a real “doozy”.  If you’re buying an airplane- my best advice is to be prepared to spend at least 50% of the hull value on maintenance... and recognize you will most likely not recoup that “investment.”

I still own my second J..... they are great airplanes!

[ChrisV]

Thanks for the reply M016576. I'm not looking to make money off buying and flying the crap out of an airplane... i'm not crazy, I'm a pilot.  Just trying to get an idea.  I've got time and money, but I like my money and just want to feel better about spending (or in my mind) investing it.

[carusoam]

Flying is a life skill...

Having a plane is an investment in that life skill...

Owning a plane is like buying a car... they are expenses that require constant maintenance whether you use it or not...

 

heres to financial conservatism!

Make it happen...

m20c

bought for 34amu

sold 18amu

ten great years...

-a-

[ChrisV]

Carusoam, that, to me is a very wise investment.  Thank you.

[steingar]

The purpose of Money is to make us happy. If the OP likes his money so we’ll he can sit in his trailer home (best way to save money imaginable), sit, watch TV and when the urge comes to do something meaningful take the short walk to the fridge to get another beer. Things that make life worth living, a loving spouse, children, and yes an airplane, are entirely antithetical to financial conservatism.

i can only make one promise about an airplane. It will suck down way more money than you think it will. Mine sucked down so much I can’t even afford to fly it this month. No one can tell you what your airplane will cost you other than a rough estimate of operating costs (roughly $150/operating hour, less if you fly more). If you are that worried about your money do something cheaper, like knitting or Origami. Aviation is not for you.

[N201MKTurbo]

27 minutes ago, steingar said:

The purpose of Money is to make us happy. If the OP likes his money so we’ll he can sit in his trailer home (best way to save money imaginable), sit, watch TV and when the urge comes to do something meaningful take the short walk to the fridge to get another beer. Things that make life worth living, a loving spouse, children, and yes an airplane, are entirely antithetical to financial conservatism.

i can only make one promise about an airplane. It will suck down way more money than you think it will. Mine sucked down so much I can’t even afford to fly it this month. No one can tell you what your airplane will cost you other than a rough estimate of operating costs (roughly $150/operating hour, less if you fly more). If you are that worried about your money do something cheaper, like knitting or Origami. Aviation is not for you.

My wife recently took up knitting. Do you have any idea how much yarn costs?

[ChrisV]

Unfortunately most of my money is spent making my family happy and providing a far better life for them than I could have imaged.  A blessed responsibility.  I think a plane would do that even better.  Taking my 1 year old boy flying would be as much fun as hovering 30 ft over alligators with my father (the  latter not the smartest move in a single engine helo).  

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, ChrisV said:

Unfortunately most of my money is spent making my family happy and providing a far better life for them than I could have imaged.  A blessed responsibility.  I think a plane would do that even better.  Taking my 1 year old boy flying would be as much fun as hovering 30 ft over alligators with my father (the  latter not the smartest move in a single engine helo).  

I took my son flying once when He was 2 or so. I put the car seat in the right seat. Just after takeoff he decided to put both feet on the yoke and push as hard as he could!

He didn't get to ride up front for a few years after that. The things they don't teach you in flying school.

Be careful out there!

[MIm20c]

3 hours ago, ChrisV said:

First post, forgive me if this is already a thread.  I am looking to buy a 201 (first plane purchase).  I am financially extremely conservative and trying to determine the investment value.  My questions are:

What did you pay for your plane?

How much did you spend on upgrades?

How long did you have it?

How much did you sell it for?

Thanks in advance.

Planes are not an investment. Instead they are probably the most dangerous way to light money on fire. Enjoy the ride!

[TTaylor]

All aircraft are an expense. The question is how much do they allow you to earn or save extra money or give you more time and happiness to do other things.   There is not much of a deprecation on older aircraft currently, but there is a high cost to maintain, insure, house, and upgrade them.  So your spreadsheet will not show much loss on deprecation, but the yearly cost and hourly flight cost is what you will have to justify.

You can keep the costs down by having a few partners if that is something you are comfortable with.  I have partners and am happy, but many like to be the sole owner.

Unless you are using the plane for business; most of us justify them by joy of flying, time saved to travel, and happiness we get by being able to do things others can't.  We can enjoy weekends with family or visiting places others can't do because of the time involved to travel by any other means.  I will spend this next weekend enjoying southern Utah on a short weekend because I can be there with a two hour flight rather than a six hour drive.  Some things are priceless.  

 

 

 

 

[steingar]

42 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

My wife recently took up knitting. Do you have any idea how much yarn costs?

Mrs. Steingar is an expert knitter, and has filled my third floor with yarn, machines and their accessories.  Their cost pales before those of an aircraft. That, and Mrs. Steingar makes enough of her own cloths that she spends that much less time shopping for them.

[flight2000]

Bought my ugly duckling 67E in 2009 for $36K

Upgrades = $54K (paint, autopilot, avionics, and some air frame mods)

Sold it in 2016 = $69K

You can see what I did here: http://67m20e.com/mooney-m20e.html

Cheers,

Brian

P.S. I do miss her at times.  She was a great bird, but we ended up out growing her in the long run.  Perfect for one or two people!

[flight2000]

I did forget to mention that this was done with our "play" money.  We don't have any other major hobbies outside of this, so my wife and I travel with our boys.  Way better than the cattle cars used by the airlines.  That alone was my ROI - and so worth the memories and adventures we had in it and still continue to have with our current plane.

Brian

[ChrisV]

She is a beaut Brian.  It would be sad to see that one go.  Thanks for the info.

 

Chris.

[DonMuncy]

Like the law of gasses, an airplane budget will expand to eat up all the money you can or will throw at it. 

Even if everyone on MS gave you their numbers, I doubt it would be very helpful.

[flight2000]

6 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Like the law of gasses, an airplane budget will expand to eat up all the money you can or will throw at it. 

Even if everyone on MS gave you their numbers, I doubt it would be very helpful.

Maybe, maybe not.  Sure would be entertaining though...

Brian

[N201MKTurbo]

Raytheon bought me my first Mooney in 84 for $21000. I sold it In 2003 for $52000. Not a bad deal.

I was a field service engineer for them and they were paying me the same price as an airfare. I was flying 3 to 4 legs a day. I told them they were over paying me, but they told me that was the rule.

My expense reimbursement far exceeded my pay check. Good times....

[smccray]

Owning is more expensive than renting... unless it isn’t. You won’t find a deal when you buy a plane, unless you happen to find one.

Capital cost / loss is almost irrelevant. Own a plane for 5 years and fly 100 hrs per year. If you overpay by $2-3k, or the loss on the upgrades is bigger than anticipated, it’s a rounding error.

Estimate $200 per hour for 100 hrs per year.  That’s $100k down the drain over 5 years that you won’t recover when you sell the plane.  

The big number is operating cost. Base at a big airport with expensive hangars and expensive fuel (or buy fuel at big airports) your cost is going to be higher. Base at a smaller field with a cheap tie down and cheap fuel, and only fly to places with cheap fuel, the numer will be a lot smaller.

10 hours ago, ChrisV said:

First post, forgive me if this is already a thread.  I am looking to buy a 201 (first plane purchase).  I am financially extremely conservative and trying to determine the investment value. 

2 rules - I should call them theorems as I can’t prove them, but i’ll argue them with anyone. 

1) pilots are cheap bastards- and we’re all a little crazy. We buy (some) tools harbor freight to work on $6 figure flying machines. We bitch and moan about how expensive maintenance is, never mind that the hourly rate is substantially cheaper than we pay for car maintenance.

2) in pilots minds real world economics and aviation economics have completely different standards. We question pricing of products all over, then spend thousands on upgrades to planes.

Jump on in- the water is fine!!!

[gsxrpilot]

First Mooney M20C bought $48K sold $50K with about $10K in upgrades. Second Mooney M20K 252 bought $119K spent $40K on upgrades to date... still flying it and loving it.

As so many others have said, owning an airplane will never make financial sense. But I can't imagine a better way to spend the disposable income I have. But there are some realities.

Be able to write a check for the purchase price, light it on fire, and not be financially ruined. Devastated, crying uncontrollably, sure, but not financially ruined.

Second, be able to spend $1000 to $2000 per month flying or not. And lastly be able to put your hands on cost of an engine on any given day starting with day one.

If you can do this while still paying your bills, sending the kids to college, and funding retirement, then to hell with the money... you'll love your airplane and the flying.

[flight2000]

Next Question...

[MooneyBob]

1977 J bought for $65. 

Spent $80k in upgrades, avionics, annuals, fuel tanks, engine over last 5 years. No money spared to keep it nice and safe. 

I would be lucky to get maybe $95k??? Buyers are cheap. 

[Danb]

These numbers are approximate based on an old memory 

1985 bought a 1977 Cherokee to learn to fly $14,500 ..sold 1986 $17,500

1986 bought 1977 J $40,000 sold 1988 $50,000

1988 bought new 1988 J $110,000 sold 2006 $150,000

2006 bought 6 month old 2005 BravoGX $465,000 still have market went in toilet early 2000’s most likely deprecated 50%

how times have changed. Yearly costs 20-40,000 based on r/m and upgrades

 

[rbridges]

22 hours ago, ChrisV said:

First post, forgive me if this is already a thread.  I am looking to buy a 201 (first plane purchase).  I am financially extremely conservative and trying to determine the investment value.  

 

x10000

Either do it for fun or convenience.  You're gonna throw money at it either way.  

[Marauder]

On 10/14/2018 at 9:49 AM, ChrisV said:

First post, forgive me if this is already a thread.  I am looking to buy a 201 (first plane purchase).  I am financially extremely conservative and trying to determine the investment value.  My questions are:

What did you pay for your plane?

How much did you spend on upgrades?

How long did you have it?

How much did you sell it for?

Thanks in advance.

Chris -- financially EXTREMELY conservative and airplane ownership are two phrases you just don't see together. Your other comment that you want to determine investment value, also indicates that you think you can sell later for a profit. Even for the guys who said they made money selling, there is the caveat on the annual ownership costs. Danb's response above should be noted. Dan is a CPA. Yeah, he sold for more, but he also said he spent $20k to $40k annually.

I am not a CPA, but can tell you that my F is running $23k to $28k to operate. I have owned my plane for 28 years. So do the math, averaging 28 years at $25k is $700k. You want to buy my F for a killer deal? I'll sell it to you for $650k!! Look at what you get. It's so SHINY!

 

Early in my ownership, money was tighter and I saved money by doing owner assisted annuals, not upgrading anything and spending available $ resources to make sure the plane and avionics were kept up. If you don't maintain the plane, the value goes down and the risk goes up. You need to be mentally prepared to write big checks, shaky hands and all. Sorry for my cynicism. We have seen a number of potential owners come on this site, buy and then are dealing with costs they didn't expect. Can it be done? Sure, but don't think that buying an airplane is an investment. It is not.

A number of owners have the financial means to deal with whatever comes their way. They do or don't track expenses. They do or don't carry reserves. There are others who know how much it is costing them and make it work despite having less disposable income. And then there those who get in over their heads and eventually sell for a loss.

If you want to know whether this activity fits your conservative financial outlook, try to fill this table out for your area (hangar costs differ around the country, same for fuel and other costs). Once you total up those ranges, see if you are comfortable laying out that kind of money.