Buy-NoBuy - Mooney M20C Engine Corrosion? Engine: Lycoming O-360-AD1, Firewall Forward

[Vagus]

Hello everyone,
 

I am looking at an airplane that's located on the coastal region for the last two - three years. Additionally, the airplane spent the earlier 13 years of it's ENGINE*** life in Colorado.

I just wanted to get the opinion of my Mooney friends and experts here if corrosion effecting the CAMS, Lifters, or even Cylinders is highly possible and what % would you say?

I understand to check I would have to do a more intensive pre-buy and I am not sure I want to do that and just not buy the plane.

Below is an excel chart I made for flying time for the plane. Most of the time is spent in CO except* for the last 3 years which was on the coast.

Table below based on engine inspections.

Years	Date	SMOH	TT	Flight time that year
1	7/9/2003	0	3209.8
2	7/24/2004	79	3289	79
3	10/7/2005	113	3322.7	34
4	1/1/2006	113	3322.7	0
5	1/12/2007	154	3364	41
6	1/12/2008	192	3402	38
7	6/12/2009	216	3425.3	23
8	1/1/2010	216	3425.3	0
9	1/1/2011	216	3425.3	0
10	5/10/2012	217	3426.34	1
11	6/5/2013	269	3478.4	52
12	1/1/2014	275	3485.29	7
13	1/1/2015	282	3492.19	7
14	8/18/2016	289	3499.08	7
15	1/20/2017	317	3527	28
16	4/1/2018	370	3579.59	53
	9/27/2018	371	3580	1

Go or no go?

Edited October 3, 2018 by James0519
Formatting adjustment

[gsxrpilot]

What a pity to put a freshly overhauled engine on a Mooney and then fly it less than 400 hours in 16 years. It would be a guess, but that guess can be educated by knowing what engine are we talking about. Can you share the model of either Lycoming or Continental this engine is?

[Vagus]

@gsxrpilotUpdated the post with the engine model. Yes it is a shame for sure.

[gsxrpilot]

Others will be along shortly with better knowledge of that particular engine. But if the C is otherwise well equipped... has an Stec autopilot and WAAS GPS, and is in overall good condition, and priced right... I'd probably be interested but going in knowing that I might be buying an engine at anytime over the next 10 to 1500 hours.  But I would not buy it based on the fact it has a 400 SMOH engine.

And this is only because well equipped C's are getting more and more scarce. If this one needs avionics or any other major improvements... I'd keep looking.

Just my $0.02

[Vagus]

@gsxrpilot I really appreciate your input. The airplane has king radios (dme, ifr gs) , Adsb, no auto pilot, recently sealed tanks in 2018, a mounted Garmin 800 or so, can't do ifr with it, electric gear. No narcos. But from my understanding metal could pop up in the oil filter in as little as 50 to 100 hrs without checking. Just debating if it's even worth it.  (wasting the cash based on the %) 

Also the planes engine (cylinders, Cams) has not been opened up since 2003. (oil has been changed expect those low time years) (maybe the owner changed it) 

 

 

Edited October 3, 2018 by James0519

[FloridaMan]

You should always go into buying an airplane with the plan/ability to replace the engine unless it’s still under warranty. With that said, that one looks like a candidate to start making metal and unless it’s priced accordingly, I’d keep looking. An 800 hour engine at 50 hours a year for 16 years is still a risk, but I’d still consider it an 800 hour engine. I bought my first Mooney with 1100 hours and 17 years on the engine and got another 1000 out of it over the next five before it ate the camshaft, but it was consistently flown 50-100 hours/yr. 

[gsxrpilot]

2 minutes ago, James0519 said:

@gsxrpilot I really appreciate your input. The airplane has king radios (dme, ifr gs) , Adsb, no auto pilot, recently sealed tanks in 2018, a mounted Garmin 800 or so, can't do ifr with it, electric gear. No narcos. But from my understanding metal could pop up in the oil filter in as little as 50 to 100 hrs without checking. Just debating if it's even worth it.  (wasting the cash based on the %) 

I'd keep looking. The engine is a huge risk... and it doesn't seem this is the one to take a risk on.

[Raptor05121]

Simple. Make an offer as a run-out airplane, contingent on if you can pull a jug and stick a borescope in it

[Stephen Watkins]

Definitely insist on a borescope inspection of all 4 cylinders as part of the pre-buy.    You will be able to confirm or eliminate the question on corrosion in the cylinders...and get a look at the heat pattern on the exhaust valves..

[thinwing]

Simple huh...

 

[Vagus]

@Stephen Watkins that's definitely what I was going to do but just getting two off and back on is around 800+. I just don't think it's worth doing and betting there's already corrosion so I would be wasting my money. I guess you can really never know for sure unless it's done. But should I do it... Hmmm? @gsxrpilot thanks for the advice, I'm about 60% buy 40% no go. 

[SantosDumont]

Is the plane $20k? Then maybe. Otherwise nah. Buy something updated with a WAAS GPS and an S-TEC autopilot. 

[Vagus]

@SantosDumont plane is in the mid 40s range. Won't disclosure the exact amount being a gentlemen. 

[SantosDumont]

When I was looking for my plane there was a C, WAAS 430 with STEC 30 for $40k.  I called a day later to put down a deposit and it was already gone.  A pristine C with all the fixin’s will top out around $50k.  More than that and you should be looking at Fs. The name of the game is know all the avionics you want and then be fast. 

[Vagus]

@SantosDumont I appreciate your wisdom here. What engine time or how much was that plane flown per year, I hear 50 or more is good with no down years. 

[bradp]

You need to price it as a plane with an unloved 16 year old engine not a 300 SMOH gem.  

[SantosDumont]

That was 2 years ago. I don’t remember the specifics of that plane. However I ended up in a F with a similar engine. 18 years old, 1600 SNEW, 10 years 400 STOH.  I talked the seller down a bit, probably should have talked them down a bit more. I took a chance on that engine, put 400hrs on it and consider myself lucky. But I’m ready to spend $35k when it starts making metal. 

The difference is that my F has all the mods and avionics.  I don’t have to spend a dime on upgrades if I don’t want to. (Obviously I want to, but don’t need to). 

[mooniac15u]

12 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

Simple. Make an offer as a run-out airplane, contingent on if you can pull a jug and stick a borescope in it

I keep hearing people suggesting pulling a cylinder to inspect the cam during a PPI.  Has anyone actually encounter a seller who would allow the buyer's mechanic to remove a cylinder during a PPI?

[Vagus]

@SantosDumont so would you say for 45k, that engine time per year, and avionics I could find a better one in a year maybe that would have a Garmin 430+,stec etc?

Also everyone, what are your thoughts on clubs? 

[gsxrpilot]

With an M20C... every dollar you spend up front on the purchase will likely save you $4 on the backend, upgrades, maintenance, etc. So the very best value on an M20C will the the one with a $50K asking price. It will be flying regularly, have an Stec autopilot and a WAAS GPS, it probably has the 6 pack panel arrangement, probably ADSB, and an engine monitor. The data logging engine monitor will allow you to have a look at how the owner flies the plane and treats the engine. 

That one isn't for sale today, at least not that I see... but with the cash set aside and ready to spend, be watching all the usual places, and when it appears, grab it.

The alternative is to spend $30K. But it will be on borrowed engine time (25K) no autopilot (15K) no GPS (15K) need ADSB, engine monitor, etc (10K) and eat up (10K) at the first annual. Oh and we haven't even gotten to leaky fuel tanks (8K). Assuming you open your checkbook and spend the money, you have invested just over $100K to own that very nice $50K M20C.

These numbers are the most out of wack with the older vintage Mooneys. As you get into the J's and K's, and especially into the long bodies, the numbers start to make a lot more sense. But vintage Mooneys, especially the M20C, are either bought right or be prepared to spend and never see it again. 

On a final note, we have seen the value of M20C, E's, and F's trending upward. They are desirable airplanes and so as the total fleet continues to shrink, they become more valuable and so spending to bring get one up to date, is slowly becoming more viable.

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

The alternative is to spend $30K. But it will be on borrowed engine time (25K) no autopilot (15K) no GPS (15K) need ADSB, engine monitor, etc (10K) and eat up (10K) at the first annual. Oh and we haven't even gotten to leaky fuel tanks (8K). Assuming you open your checkbook and spend the money, you have invested just over $100K to own that very nice $50K M20C.

And Paul has a list of owners who have ended up in this position, and not all of them were C buyers.

Not a list to aspire to make.

[gsxrpilot]

19 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

And Paul has a list of owners who have ended up in this position, and not all of them were C buyers.

Not a list to aspire to make.

Yes I do.

[0TreeLemur]

Curious question that might help in this situation.  Is it possible to buy parametric insurance on a/c engines?   For example, buy a policy for $X,000 that if it needs an overhaul in the next 200 h or two years due to corrosion as determined by the rebuild shop, then the policyholder is paid $25k?   I wonder what the premium would be on something like that?  

I just attended a meeting on risk management, and yes, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

[Hephaestus]

Oh please tell me someone can answer @Fred_2O 's insurance question. I'd be on that like a dirty shirt

[KLRDMD]

3 hours ago, mooniac15u said:

I keep hearing people suggesting pulling a cylinder to inspect the cam during a PPI.  Has anyone actually encounter a seller who would allow the buyer's mechanic to remove a cylinder during a PPI?

Yep. For an airplane I bought a few years ago that was the right thing to do and the seller was fine with it.