Nice opportunity for a Bravo owner!

[KSMooniac]

From the MAPA list:

 

 

I received a call from Jarett Haffner (913-440-2229) at Garmin.  They are looking for a Mooney M20M to certify their new Garmin GFC 500 autopilot system.  It’s the whole system – including servos, installation, etc. 

 

Here’s the process:

 

Garmin takes possession of the plane for 4-6 months – using a bailment agreement

 

They perform the installation including brackets, etc

 

They write an installation manual as they do this

 

They get ODA approval – for the installation from the FAA

 

The plane is put into “experimental status” for flight testing

 

Once testing is complete and the system is certified – they return the plane to the owner

 

They hope to have a plane in possession by August 1, 2018

 

He estimated the system is about a $30-$40,000 value.  

 

I told him I would call you.  He said it was ok to spread the word – but he is NOT willing to talk to any other Mooney type owner.  He wants an M20M. 

 

 

 

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

 

 

[smccray]

3 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

Garmin takes possession of the plane for 4-6 months – using a bailment agreement

Okay that sucks.... 4-6 months!!!

3 hours ago, KSMooniac said:

He estimated the system is about a $30-$40,000 value.   

Wait a minute... I can add up the cost of a GFC500 and a pair of G5s... Hmmm...

[donkaye, MCFI]

54 minutes ago, smccray said:

Okay that sucks.... 4-6 months!!!

Wait a minute... I can add up the cost of a GFC500 and a pair of G5s... Hmmm...

Actually it could take a couple of months just to do that type of install, so having the airplane out of commission that long might not be so bad.  My upgrade took 6 months.  I'm sure they wouldn't consider mine, since it is too advanced for them.  I only have nearly everything that Garmin sells in it---which is the problem.  The GFC 500 doesn't interface with the G500 TXi line of products.  But if it did....  Now if they wanted one to STC the GFC 600, I'd be flying East tomorrow.  My understanding is that they have no intention of ever doing that, so---if the BK KFC 230 ever becomes a reality, I'm going with that.

[carusoam]

I know an O that would love a paid vacation...

Almost an M20M...

A GFC500 and a G500TXi would look really modern in that plane...

Dreaming out loud,

-a-

 

[KSMooniac]

Don, it wouldn't surprise me a bit to see the GFC500 get approved for use with the TXi system eventually. Maybe soon. You still might need a G5, though.

Sent from my LG-US996 using Tapatalk

[Rick Junkin]

I got the same call. I am talking to Jarret about possibly using my airplane, but I'm looking at an eventual TXi upgrade and haven't heard back from him after the message I left inquiring about a future upgrade path. That's a show stopper.

I question the $30-40K valuation. The GFC500 base price is $7K, add a G5 and you're at $10K, hard to see where the other $20-30K comes from unless Garmin is including their engineering and certification admin costs on top of installation. That's me just thinking out loud. $30-40K sounds more like the cost of an installed GFC600. I'll ask Jarret about that if he calls me back.

I have several trips scheduled through the end of the year, so I'm probably not a serious contender for this. Lost opportunity cost of missing these trips (taking my beloved to the beach several times) is more than the $40K if it were real. Her happiness is pretty valuable. Priceless even.

Cheers,
Rick

[Jetlag]

I took Garmin up on this opportunity. They still have to review my logbooks to make sure there isn't going to be any issues going from experimental back to standard category. I also have to complete an annual in two weeks to make their deadline. They wan't to start on July 16th, and don't want any inspections coming due in the next 6 months. I hope it works out. 

[LANCECASPER]

I called and spoke with Jarrett. I don’t want to be limited by the G5 down the road. With my KFC150 (or maybe 230 down the road) I have a lot of options on what indicators and PFD’s I can put in the panel. They would have included the attitude G5 but I would have had to pay for the HSI G5. I didn’t think it was worth it. The new autopilot plus install plus one G5 seemed like about 15,000 worth of value. But they would have it 4-6 months and put around 35 hours on the airplane. My KFC150 works great so I didn’t see the need. I might have thought otherwise if it needed repairs.

[smccray]

15 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I called and spoke with Jarrett. I don’t want to be limited by the G5 down the road. With my KFC150 (or maybe 230 down the road) I have a lot of options on what indicators and PFD’s I can put in the panel. They would have included the attitude G5 but I would have had to pay for the HSI G5. I didn’t think it was worth it. The new autopilot plus install plus one G5 seemed like about 15,000 worth of value. But they would have it 4-6 months and put around 35 hours on the airplane. My KFC150 works great so I didn’t see the need. I might have thought otherwise if it needed repairs.

So they're saying $30-40K of value for a $7K autopilot and a $2K attitude indicator?  $20K install?  I wouldn't say that $12-15K for 6 months on a $150K airplane is unreasonable by itself, but Garmin's number doesn't pass the sniff test.  I'm sure there isn't a firm deadline at 6 months either.  35 hours on the engine is $1300 of engine value ($75K / 2000 hrs).

Many circumstances where the arrangement would make sense such as a long over seas trip (or work assignment).  If I were Garmin I would seek the same arrangement, but calling it $30-40K of value, IF we have the whole story, is insanity.

[Rick Junkin]

7 hours ago, Jetlag said:

I took Garmin up on this opportunity.

Awesome! Now I know why I haven't heard from Jarret. I'll stop leaving him messages. Good luck!!

Cheers,
Rick

[Rick Junkin]

One last tid bit on this subject and I'm done - I gleaned from indirect conversation that the GFC500 will ultimately be certified for use with other-than-G5 interfaces, and the G5 will ultimately be certified as a back-up for other PFD installations. The only thing in question is the timeline in which this will happen. I was told to "stay tuned" for future announcements from Garmin, some as close as Air Venture 2018.

I'm slightly kicking myself for not volunteering my airplane for the STC work, but will still get more than the cost of lost opportunity of getting Glennie to the beach.

Cheers,
Rick

[Jetlag]

On 7/4/2018 at 9:32 AM, Junkman said:

One last tid bit on this subject and I'm done - I gleaned from indirect conversation that the GFC500 will ultimately be certified for use with other-than-G5 interfaces, and the G5 will ultimately be certified as a back-up for other PFD installations. The only thing in question is the timeline in which this will happen. I was told to "stay tuned" for future announcements from Garmin, some as close as Air Venture 2018.

I'm slightly kicking myself for not volunteering my airplane for the STC work, but will still get more than the cost of lost opportunity of getting Glennie to the beach.

Cheers,
Rick

The plane's log books were approved. I will be dropping off the Bravo on the way to Oshkosh. I hope that Garmin will interface the GFC500 with other products in the future. Being stuck with the G5 set up only is are hard discussion, but I was not planning on upgrading my avionics anytime soon, so I think it will work out for me. The second G5 is not included because it is not needed for certification. They have offered to install another G5 for the cost of the unit. I will do that. It still seems like a good deal for me since I wasn't planning any upgrades and I didn't have any trips planned this year except for Oshkosh. Rental car from Kansas and hotel now for Oshkosh.

Edited July 16, 2018 by Jetlag

[Rick Junkin]

On 7/14/2018 at 3:17 AM, Jetlag said:

The plane's log books were approved. I will be dropping off the Bravo on the way to Oshkosh.

Glad to hear it worked out for you! We'll see you at KOSH.

Cheers,
Rick

[carusoam]

Keep us in the loop, if you can...

its interesting to watch sausage being made.  

Best regards,

-a-

[AustinAir]

This is exciting to hear.  It will be good to have another option in the future. 

[carusoam]

Congrats on your first post, AA.

Best regards,

-a-

[mike_elliott]

Andrew, any updates yet from Garmin?

[Jetlag]

No updates from Garmin yet. They expect to be done by December. I also found out at Oshkosh that Hartzell is starting to work on the STC this month for a TopProp for the Bravo. 

[mike_elliott]

28 minutes ago, Jetlag said:

No updates from Garmin yet. They expect to be done by December. I also found out at Oshkosh that Hartzell is starting to work on the STC this month for a TopProp for the Bravo. 

Now THAT will be a nice addition! It will get about 6-8 kts Ill bet, maybe more!

[M016576]

On 6/27/2018 at 8:08 PM, donkaye said:

Actually it could take a couple of months just to do that type of install, so having the airplane out of commission that long might not be so bad.  My upgrade took 6 months.  I'm sure they wouldn't consider mine, since it is too advanced for them.  I only have nearly everything that Garmin sells in it---which is the problem.  The GFC 500 doesn't interface with the G500 TXi line of products.  But if it did....  Now if they wanted one to STC the GFC 600, I'd be flying East tomorrow.  My understanding is that they have no intention of ever doing that, so---if the BK KFC 230 ever becomes a reality, I'm going with that.

How’s that for irony.  Too much Garmin stuff to be useful to Garmin!

[Danb]

They started on the prop weight/ balance in June, I was scheduled to use my Bravo in June for two days then in Sept for 4-6 weeks to finish up the STC,  the engineers cancelled my plane at the last minute because I didn’t have a hot prop, when we did the contract  I assume they didn’t think of it at that time. They expected a reduction in noise, increased climb rate , shorter take off distance but was unsure about the increase in cruise speed. I was bummed since I would have received a prop for the use of my plane

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, Danb said:

They started on the prop weight/ balance in June, I was scheduled to use my Bravo in June for two days then in Sept for 4-6 weeks to finish up the STC,  the engineers cancelled my plane at the last minute because I didn’t have a hot prop, when we did the contract  I assume they didn’t think of it at that time. They expected a reduction in noise, increased climb rate , shorter take off distance but was unsure about the increase in cruise speed. I was bummed since I would have received a prop for the use of my plane

If its the same blades they bolt on the Acclaim, it will be an increase in cruise speed. So do they need one with a hot prop Dan?

[Danb]

I think they got somebody else, I can check the contact info and send it to you when I get back in the office if you want, you take the plane to Dayton at Hartzell 

[Barry LeBlanc]

20 hours ago, Jetlag said:

No updates from Garmin yet. They expect to be done by December. I also found out at Oshkosh that Hartzell is starting to work on the STC this month for a TopProp for the Bravo. 

Hi,

 Can you explain what avionics you had in your panel before going to Garmin and what is installing new? 

[Jetlag]

Garmin is taking out the KFC 150 autopilot, HSI, and Attitude indicator. So I get rid of two vacuum pumps, the Attitude indictor, and the HSI and the gyro to support the HSI. It will be replaced with their GFC 500 autopilot, two G5s, and all the things needed for the new autopilot to talk to my GTN.